OMG!! O'Connor/Parelli stuff

[tle]

A friend just forwarded me a note that said to take a look at the event schedule on Parelli's website. It includes a couple seminar's that Karen & David are doing at Parelli's Colorado ranch (a 2 week session with David or 2 1-week sessions with Karen). The best emotional description I can come up with is "sad bordering on p*ssed". A single one week session with Karen is $4000!!! Yes, it includes lodging and boarding, but gimme a break! The 2 week session wtih David is $8000!! ***AND*** participants must already be Parelli Level 1 certified (from what I can see, basically having already gone through the program to the tune of over $1500).

So I ask you, my fellow BB denisons... is it me and my personal "cheapness" (not cheap per se, just broke trying to do everything I want) that thinks this is the marketing plan from h#ll for us riders and "ordinary folks"? Or am I not alone in an overall feeling of being "let down" by 2 of eventing's greatest... not to mention people I look(ed) up to??

http://www.parelli.com/Main%20Pages/ISC%20Folder/kdisc.htm

************
If Dressage is a Symphony... Eventing is Rock & Roll!

Survivor thoughts -- Episode 9 recap ... Sean definitely needs riding lessons. Buh-Bye Zoe you manly-girl you.

GO RED WINGS!!!

[tle]

A friend just forwarded me a note that said to take a look at the event schedule on Parelli's website. It includes a couple seminar's that Karen & David are doing at Parelli's Colorado ranch (a 2 week session with David or 2 1-week sessions with Karen). The best emotional description I can come up with is "sad bordering on p*ssed". A single one week session with Karen is $4000!!! Yes, it includes lodging and boarding, but gimme a break! The 2 week session wtih David is $8000!! ***AND*** participants must already be Parelli Level 1 certified (from what I can see, basically having already gone through the program to the tune of over $1500).

So I ask you, my fellow BB denisons... is it me and my personal "cheapness" (not cheap per se, just broke trying to do everything I want) that thinks this is the marketing plan from h#ll for us riders and "ordinary folks"? Or am I not alone in an overall feeling of being "let down" by 2 of eventing's greatest... not to mention people I look(ed) up to??

http://www.parelli.com/Main%20Pages/ISC%20Folder/kdisc.htm

************
If Dressage is a Symphony... Eventing is Rock & Roll!

Survivor thoughts -- Episode 9 recap ... Sean definitely needs riding lessons. Buh-Bye Zoe you manly-girl you.

GO RED WINGS!!!

[drifting cloud]

tle -- yeah, it pretty much smacks of capitalism. I don't know enough about these kinds of programs to know if the cost is really worth it. I guess if you want to be a horse trainer, it could be your equivalent of going to college and paying tuition? On the other hand, it is a butt load of money to pay for only 1 or 2 weeks. Are these seminars more for people wanting to become trainers or just ordinary folks who ride?

This is no excuse, but Parelli and the O'Connors aren't the only ones doing this. I think it also takes several thousands of dollars (maybe even tens of thousands??) to become a John Lyons-certified trainer. /infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

[This message was edited by drifting cloud on Apr. 26, 2002 at 12:19 PM.]

[shr]

I heard that tonights seminar at the KHP is already sold out, so those expecting to purchase tickets at the door are going to disappointed.

I'm looking forward to hearing feedback from those who are lucky enough to attend.

Hope to see you Saturday tle /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[PMJ]

I agree. I know that this will probably annoy some people, but I do like more tried and true methods and haven't really found for lack of a better word "gimicky" type training things to be something I am personally interested in doing or subscribing to in terms of methodology. I'm sure many people have success with it, but especially when it comes with such a hefty price tag I'm afraid I will pass. In all honesty, I am surprised at the pricing, not to mention the connection. I guess I feel let down also. I don't think training is exclusive to anyone, but I would much rather spend that kind of money focusing on my dressage, cross country, or stadium.

[Hilary]

$8000 - you've got to be kidding!! Does that include airfare for me AND my horse? As well as **** accommodations? And about 25 follow-up lessons?

I learned just as much from sitting in the stands at Equine Affaire WATCHING what John Lyons did as I would have if it had been my horse in the ring with him. Basically the man is patient, quiet, and consistent, consistent, consistent.

There - for free - the basic horse training ideas that most of these guys base their programs on.

I'm appalled. And I won't be going, that's for sure.

I saw the ads in one of the magazines I got recently, but didn't pick up on the price tag.

[tle]

Yes, the thing tonight at KHP is sold out (according to the Parelli website). The website lists tonights thing as

"The first ever event of its kind. Karen, David, Pat and Linda will explain and demonstrate how training with natural communication allows your horse to become calmer, smarter, braver and more athletic in everything he does."

It's supposed to be from 6-9, so I guess in that respect, $30 isn't a terrible price (plus of course the price tag to get into Rolex itself for the day), but I wonder how much "show" is going to be part of it... meaning I spent 2 hours (?) watching one of his things at Equine Affaire and came away with some knowledge that could have been passed on in 20-30 minutes.. the rest was a good "show" (complete with music, lights, etc.).

The weeklong things with Karen & David are listed as "includes cabin accommodations and horse board and feed."... so on top of the $4k or $8k price-tag it sounds like you also have to supply your own food (in addition to getting yourself and your horse out there).

************
If Dressage is a Symphony... Eventing is Rock & Roll!

Survivor thoughts -- Episode 9 recap ... Sean definitely needs riding lessons. Buh-Bye Zoe you manly-girl you.

GO RED WINGS!!!

[AllyCat]

Pat Parelli is a good horseman and teacher. He is also real good at marketing. One of the things that has always gotten me going about this system is that it's nothing a hundred other horse trainers haven't been doing for a very long time.

When I was having some dominance problems with my mare, a friend suggested a Parelli clinic in my town that weekend. It was $150 just to go watch. Then you were supposed to buy all this stuff (rope halter and special lead for another $150). Then you had to have a carrot stick for another $50 (apparently, not just any old whip will do). There was so much apparatus you had to have, it just seemed a bit odd to me.

Then I saw a Frank Bell video. The man does EXACTLY the same thing. But he makes a point of stating how you can get the equipment for a lot cheaper (like at a junk yard for 5 bucks). It was one 45 minute video and it completely changed how I work with my horse and our relationship.

I think all this work on getting the horses trust is humane and admirable. The marketing ploys are not. As Frank Bell would say, $4000 would be a lot to pay.

[Hilary]

Well I just checked the site and the do provide some food for you (as well as campfires and singalongs - oh, gee, there's the dealbreaker...) but the horsefeed is hay CUBES and grain, no hay in the pens. Whatever that means.

And you have to have all the requisite Parelli equipment.

I'm a bit surprised at the suddenness of this - the O'Connors have been touting their Parelli stuff only this year (as far as I've noticed) and it really seems they've jumped on board. It's not like they weren't doing well before they met this man.

How much would it cost to be a student at the VA farm for a week? - as an eventer I'd rather do that.

[PMJ]

Gee the George Morris clinic near me was only $50.00 to audit and I have much more respect for him and am more impressed with his credentials.

[DebS]

but perhaps a conversation went something like this:

Parelli: David, how much would you want to give a 2 week eventing clinic at my place?

David: Oh, 40K.

Parelli: NONSENSE!! you're worth at least $60K and I'll double that and keep half.

[OlmosHeaven]

I'm not choosing sides, but here's something to ponder:

My husband took a Parelli clinic in February with Parelli's right-hand man (or one of), Dave Ellis. It cost $435, ran three days, 7-8 hours a day. For that time, he and 15-19 other rider/horse pairs were in an arena working under the supervision of Ellis or an assistant. There were breaks.

Two weeks later, our trainer brought in Karen for her annual clinic. Cost was $325. That was for a two-day clinic, two hours per day.

If you break that down on a cost per hour basis, the Parelli clinic was a bit over $20 and the O'Connor clinic was a bit over $80. (I won't go into the equipment issue.)

Both clinics had organizers, who, I'm sure, were getting something out of it -- maybe a ride or two, maybe real money. I don't know.

I'm not trying to imply that one is better than the other for the money. But when I looked at the Parelli schedule, it was easier to justify the cost of the clinic my husband signed up for. Unfortunately, we both had to pass on Karen this year. 'Course, I might not have been too happy if he had signed up for both. /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[Sannois]

wonder why the O'connors felt the need to jump on the Parrelli band wagon now!? Gold medal winner? Gee could they have done better with Pat before? I'm truly not into this Gotta buy all my stuff natural horsemanship way! Wonder how the other big time eventers feel about this?? I'm bewildered! /infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

"Those who would give up
essential Liberty, to
purchase a little temporary
Safety, deserve neither
Liberty nor Safety" Benjamin
Franklin, 1755

[BarbB]

I know quite a few people who, when it comes to animals, have more money than sense.
They are doing well in their careers and bought the house with small acreage and the horse that they always wanted. They know nothing about horses, but this one is a member of the family, like the dog, and they would like to take good care of it and not be afraid of it. (It seems really big sometimes!)
They are the perfect atttendees at a clinic like this. They have no contacts in the competitive horse world, the only people they know that have horses are just like them. They want to understand a little about the horse and it is much more important that it be docile and trustworthy than that it be able and willing to gallop fast and leap tall buildings.
They won't go to the local free/cheap clinic sponsored by a vet or a feed store because they firmly believe that the more you pay for something - the better it is.
They would be more than willing to spend this amount to hear Olympic gold medal winners tell them how to take care of the horse, even if they are not exactly sure what the gold medals were for.
David and Karen may just be trying to make a living - they may be trying to reach a wider audience, who knows. But there is a market for it.
I would hope that eventers wouldn't waste their time or money.
If I attend a clinic with either of the O'Connors (and I have audited Karen's clinic several times) it will be an eventing clinic, which costs hundreds, not thousands, of dollars and it will be to hear them tell me how to ride a sport horse better.
I think that many people in the sport horse world work long hours and eat Campbell's soup to support a horse that is worth more than the car or even the house and who lives better than the owner.
We forget that there are other kinds of horse owners and lots of them have money - and I'm not talking about the hunter world. /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

BarbB

charter member BEQS Clique & Invisible Poster Clique

[PMJ]

As far as the costs go, I think that is pretty well straight forward in that you are paying more for the experience and information. My big gripe with the joint clinic venture and a reason I would not want to go is that if I cliniced with the O'Connors, I would expect and want to learn about eventing--not natural horsemanship. I am willing to pay for that. From how I see it, Parelli has gotten the endorsement of a gold medalist and that will bring in the bucks.

[malarkey]

I am a little surprised that the O'Connors chose to associate themselves with Parelli, who is known as more of a marketer than anything else within NH circles. His program is, as someone else pointed out, designed for people who have $$$$ and who are fairly new to the horsey world, or are unaware (or don't care) that there are cheaper ways of getting the same results.

[deltawave]

Several people wondered why all of a sudden the O'Connors--arguably at the pinnacle of the sport--are aligning themselves with Parelli. You'd think the successes they've had to date would qualify them to teach anyone just about ANYTHING without needing another "name" to latch onto. Looks like they're trying to cash in on that Gold Medal, but why use another "name"?

It's gross.

[TopBritYR]

I went to the parelli thing on friday! i was w/ Linda Wachtmestier and she oringally called up and they were sold out. But she went and talked to karen and she got us VIP tickets. so we had a great view. Personally i thought it was great in the beginning but 3hours was just way too long and thoose uncomfotable seats. and there were no breaks at all, the actual parrelli stuff wasr great but then they started telling their life storys and it was like okay to much! 1 hour all about linda's crazy aus TB! I think it was great at parts but had to much promotion of their products and other semniars. basicly it was just a preview and a way to sell you, to fly out to colorado for 4,000 and see them do it four 2 weeks. uhhh noo to much for me. I went to another o'connor clinic parrelli thing last june at the VA horse center "An Eevning w/the O'Connor's" i thought that was alot better, small more intresting and interactive.

but it was still a great evening, i only fell asleep twice during it! 40 winks!

PRAY FOR KIM! HOLD THE RAIN!DANANIMALS IN 1ST!
TopBritYR /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

17 days and counting until Virginia CCI* starts for me......ahhh!

[LAZ]

We thought it was a 3 hour infomercial--and we never got any information! Very disappointing! We kept getting told how it was going to benefit our horses but they never demonstrated what their techniques really were nor how they worked. It was fun to see Karen and David do a line in a decreasing number of strides, and to see David jump around with just a saddle and neck rope, but I'm still not just real sure how that is supposed to benefit MY horse.

I was appalled to see Linda and Pat Parelli jumping their horses with no helmets or any type of safety equipment (especially at a demonstration/clinic associated with the Rolex International 3 Day event). I was appalled to see them demonstrate jumping over a folding, unreinforced picnic table. Linda very nearly fell off twice while jumping bareback with a halter and no protective headgear whatsoever. They were working closely up behind their hores, flapping sticks and ropes and pulling on their horse's tails with never a remark that it shouldn't just be tried at home. What sort of example were they trying to set for the general public, many of whom look up to the Parelli name? *UGH*

I'm not arguing that the things they can get the horses to do were cool, but we never got any info as to how they did it, or why they did it, or how to avoid getting your teeth kicked down your throat while working in close quarters with the horse.

The eight of us were not at all impressed, nor were we pleased to have paid $30 apiece. We guessed there were at least 200 people in attendence, and at $30/head---that's a pretty fair chunk of change!

[lilblackhorse]

is that waving of the plastic bag attached to a whip a Parelli thing? Oh god, I can't believe that karen and david have gotten themselves tied into that crap!

I, as a PC alum went to our local pc to help one day-watched from the sidelines as some Parelli moron was teaching these kids to whap a carrot bag attached to a dressage whip in their horse's faces! /infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif OK, I give up, what's the point of this exercise? To make the horse headshy? It worked. Then they had the kids facing their horses and shaking the hell out of the lead ropes, making these poor freaked out old troopers raise their heads wondering WHAT they had done...then they backed up all worried looking. Ok, what's the point of THAT??? Later I saw a PC kid in our barn do the shaking thing to a young mare who was being ignored, so moved a few steps, and this kid started shaking like mad....I told her she was NOT to use that EVER....pay attention to your horse, expect behavior, but don't punish them when you ignore them.

Back to the O'C thing, I am saddened to see them get involved with that. I worked for karen many years ago, and she is full of common sense and good basic riding skills which stand the test of time. I don't get the tie in to the commercialism. Went and saw Linda T-J and Gowani PonyBoy and Clinton Anderson at an expo, and they all are into the "buy my gimmicks", they will help you the fastest. Why are the O'C's who KNOW how long it takes to properly bring along a good horse buying into the quick and dirty training schemes??? I just don't get it. /infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

The gene pool could use a little chlorine.

[Magnolia]

It seems like most horses that have been well treated (not abused, not spoiled), that get enough work and are in a calm environment have good barn manners. Horses are animals and will do the unexpected - I don't like the whole submission aspect of these people. Yes, I agree a horse should be obedient under saddle, and shouldn't be a holy terror, but do we really need horses that jump picnic tables without any tack? Or something that will stand next to a bear and not run off?

It seems like a lot of novices get involved with this stuff. Probably if they invested their money in a good suitable horse and some lessons and took a class or 2 in stable management, they'd have the same results. Well, just my 2 cents...

The witchy witch witch of south central NC.

[AM]

Have any of you read David's article in the May Practical Horseman? David says, "Karen and I have been working our horses in the round pen for the last decade or so, borrowing ideas from horsemen like Gene Lewis (USA Equestrian's 2001 Pegasus Medal of Honor recipient, an Idaho cowboy-cum-jumper-rider who spent time with famed horseman Ray Hunt), experimenting, and developing our own system. Gene taught horses to jump on a longe line, believeing they'd learn more quickly and figure things out for themselves without the interference of a rider, and he had great success with that system. He was the person who really opened my eyes to what could be accomplished from the ground, and to the pure horsemanship - asking what a horse is thinking, rather than simply controlling what he's doing - that we were missing by jumping straight into the saddle."

Most of the article is devoted to how he used round pen work with E.T. (The Native)to establish communication and teach him his job. It's only part of his program but something he uses regularly with most of his horses.

[PMJ]

Notice too, though, I belive they did not do that with ET while he was a sale horse. I was quite turned off by the article because it seemed more like an infomercial unlike the article on David "Trying and Buying the British Stystem" several years ago. Personally, I don't quite see the relevence of jumping your horse, or just riding it without any equiptment.

[hitchinmygetalong]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by AM:
Have any of you read David's article in the May Practical Horseman? David says, "Karen and I have been working our horses in the round pen for the last decade or so, borrowing ideas from horsemen like Gene Lewis (USA Equestrian's 2001 Pegasus Medal of Honor recipient, an Idaho cowboy-cum-jumper-rider who spent time with famed horseman Ray Hunt), experimenting, and developing our own system. Gene taught horses to jump on a longe line, believeing they'd learn more quickly and figure things out for themselves without the interference of a rider, and he had great success with that system. He was the person who really opened my eyes to what could be accomplished from the ground, and to the pure horsemanship - asking what a horse is thinking, rather than simply controlling what he's doing - that we were missing by jumping straight into the saddle."

Most of the article is devoted to how he used round pen work with E.T. (The Native)to establish communication and teach him his job. It's only part of his program but something he uses regularly with most of his horses.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I read this article with great interest, but finally tossed the magazine down in total disgust when I got to the photos of David (does he wear glasses?) working ET using the "Parelli Carrot Stick" and the "Parelli Rope Halter".

Please note: There is also a LARGE ad in this magazine for the clinic mentioned earlier in this thread. So when PH takes the $ for the ad, maybe there is a deal going on where Mr. O'Connor is allowed to push a "product" in his article???

Nothing but marketing. I hope the O'Connor's understand that they are LOSING many admirers with this move. But then again, maybe someone is "laughing all the way to the bank?"

"I am not afraid of storms, for I am learning to sail my ship."
-Louisa May Alcott

[Janeway]

I agree with the majority here that this "teaming" of the two parties seems more like an effort to make money.

One thing that caught my eye was a quote by Cathy Wieschoff where she talks about Parelli:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Wieschhoff said she has also been applying the Parelli training in her program, and has noticed a difference in her horses.

"I like the program because it's step-by-step," she said, noting, "If you don't buy a video or work with someone there every step of the way it can go very wrong." <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Doesn't that seem to be counter productive, that you can only progress with your horse if you buy the video? That really jumped out at me; anyone else think that is odd? She almost sounds like she is pushing the system....

I'm also wondering after having read the reports of the 3-hour long "clinic" on the friday, if that long session in fact interfered with Karen and David's performance on the Saturday (aside from weather conditions I mean) ie. that David was too tired and therefore missed that flag with Tigger Too?

You would think Karen would have wanted a quiet, early night on friday with 4 horses the next day eh? /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[malarkey]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Janeway:
I agree with the majority here that this "teaming" of the two parties seems more like an effort to make money.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> You know what I wonder.. Just how long can one stay at the top of this sport with all its demands? Granted, quite awhile (think Mike Plumb) BUT, perhaps the O'Connor's are thinking they'd like to retire from competition before they 'break down' too much themselves. I mean, how many spills can you take, especially as you get older and already have old injuries and bones that have had to heal up more than once? I'm thinking they might want to set themselves up in clinic-world for added income.

[tle]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>I'm thinking they might want to set themselves up in clinic-world for added income.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

AH HA HA HA HA!! Sorry, Margie.. I'm really not laughing at you, but as someone who has been "pestering" Karen for a clinic date this year for several months now (I've hosted a clinic with her for 5-6 years now so it's not a "first time" deal), this comment just struck me as really funny. I've also been trying to get a date with BOTH of them for the past 3 years, with no luck. They are both in VERY high demand (remember David also does course design) and Karen told me last year that starting this year they will be raising their per-day clinic fee. Oh, they also had 60-some horses with them in Florida this winter.

Something tells me that their "retirement" is probably already set.

************
If Dressage is a Symphony... Eventing is Rock & Roll!

Survivor thoughts -- Episode 9 recap ... Sean definitely needs riding lessons. Buh-Bye Zoe you manly-girl you.

GO RED WINGS!!!

[GO-dog-GO]

Lets see.... I can take lessons from my trainer for about $50 an hour. I wonder where I'd learn more, 2 weeks with the O'Conners or taking between 80 and 160 lessons from her? Hummmmm...2 lessons a day, 5 days a week for 16 weeks...

The math looks pretty easy to me.... /infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif


Trying to set up a week at Denny's this June and I don't think it'll cost 2k either /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

You never know where the edge is till you step over it. The trick is to scramble back up before it's to late.

* Charter member, saftey is overated clique.*

[AllyCat]

Someone mentioned that Cathy W. might be jumping on the PP bandwagon also. Actually, Cathy has been working with Peggy Cummings for quite some time. Peggy also has a system, but advocates techniques from lots of people (Linda T-J and some NH people). I have taken a few clinics with Peggy and one with Cathy and found them very helpful.

That said, the last time Peggy was at our barn, she had a whole trunk full of stuff to buy for working with your horse. I was really turned off as soon as I saw that. I still like some of her ideas, but I won't buy any of this stuff. If I can't do what they teach in the equipment I have, then I don't think it's a very good technique.

Interesting reports from those of you who were there on Friday night at Rolex. Guess I'm not surprised and I'm sorry you feel you lost your $30. Hopefully, there was something you could take away from it!

[Backstage]

All right, here's my take: (keep in mind that before Friday evening I had little to no idea who Pat Parelli was and that I am a fan of the O'Connors, but then being a writer their whole situation appeals to the fairy tale side of me...)
This may or may not be terribly organized, but I just got into work this afternoon after being bumped from my flight last night, staying in Detroit and getting up for the flight this morning....
General impression: Pat and Linda Parelli and their group (for lack of a better word) have absolutely mastered the marketing side of this industry. They know how to package and how to sell. Right or wrong this is how you make money in this industry and any other.

Their "product" seems to work (I could elaborate here and go on about a conspiracy theory that has their results being a scam or something as I have heard others say, no on this board...but I don't have any knowledge in this area, any comments are based on my impressions and what I have seen). Of course, as their "product" isn't a new gimmick in the sense of claiming that a new bit will magically enlightening your horse on how to perform lead changes, but rather a style of interacting with horses, it is difficult to measure this success. All things considered, I imagine that, at the very least, this system may change the way some people approach their horses and work with them.

I do not doubt that many of their methods work OR that these methods are in fact in use all over the world, by all kind of riders and trainers. But they have found a way to make this approach more accessible, and if someone is willing to pay, they may find that they reap enormous rewards. However, they are shamelessly promoting their "product" and its results and in terms of the actual value of the presentation at the KHP, it gave me no insight into what the seven games really are...of course, the reason for this is that they just want to whet you appetite and entice you into buying their package...

However, some of the things said did make a great deal of sense and many of the exercises touched on (and that is my biggest complaint was that their was no substance, it certainly didn't have me pulling out my credit card) are things that I do around home. I believe that having a good relationship with your horse is important...I do jump on my horse bareback and halter less and wander around the arena, trying to steer...my horse will follow my over jumps, and I can lead her up to them, and she'll jump them this way too (although this could be related to the fact that she adores jumping and is no reflection on her love for me!), she will follow me into scary corners...so maybe if I didn't do these things instinctively in order to build a relationship, Parelli videos (etc) would help? Having never seen the video or read "instruction" I don't know.

On to the O'Connors! My father, who is not at all horsey and who attended the Rolex and Parelli/O'Connor thing with me said the following, that while the Parellis' shamelessle advertised, the O'Connor seemed to want to forget (read: almost embarrassed) that that was the "true" reason for being there. I don't remember them pushing the Parelli merchandise at all. All they really said was that they have had success with similar approaches. Never once did they brandish a carrot stick!
Many of the things they talked about made sense, and I really did enjoy listening to their view and experiences. We often forget that horses don't KNOW what we want of them. They emphasized making it into a puzzle that the horse will be eager to solve, something that can be developed through groundwork. They want a xc horse to not boldly go and be impulsive (read: dangerous) but to listen, to perform each task and then ask what next. Listening to them, I had some insight into my own horse and her behaviour. This would be different for everyone, however, and I don't think the words would have had the same impact on me two years ago when I was showing an experienced horse. Now, with my poorly started and confused mare, what was said (what I have typed and more) has given me, as I said earlier, insight.
A few other passing comments that struck me: we learn to show before we learn to ride, to ride before we learn to speak "horse", which whether you like the wording or not, is often true. Also, in regards to the horse knowing its job and what is expected of it, they gave the example of a cutting horse that meanders slowly down the field, mingling with the cows, until its riders singles out the wanted one. Then the horse comes alive and is totally focused on his job. Once done, he goes back to meandering. And as David or Karen put it (don't remember which): "We can't even get our horses to halt at X!"

As for why they have aligned themselves with the Parellis, I really cannot say. I esp. don't know why they have bought a property in California with them (except as I understand it, their farm in The Plains in not actually theirs but belongs to one of their owners, therefore should they retire...). In terms of retiring, I really don't know, however, I do remember something about starting a family...so, that would mean, Karen, for one, would be off for a year, at least (unless of course they want to adopt me, but as my father pointed out, not many people want to adopt a 19 year old and her horse!)

Finally, in regards to the "camps", I don't know the details (re: extent of Parelli belief required) but $4000 does seem like a big pricetag, but then you have to consider that it does include board for your horse and yourself plus instruction with one of the O'Connors for a week (8000 for two weeks with David), I'm sure if you break down the hourly rate plus whatever time you spend with whatever Parelli activities are involved plus the campfires that it isn't that outrageous...what would Wayne Gretsky get for the same type of attention? I really don't know...but when you are dealing with athletes of that caliber, and with 42 spots in a country of how many million people? (I am Canadian, so I don't know the figures) esp. considering that there seem to be a lot of people willing and able to shell out big money for imported horses, or high-calibre made horses or even those that spend millions on homes...essentially, in this world where you charge what people will pay...basically all this to say that would it matter if it were $2000? It still means taking time off work and trailering you horse and yourself....I couldn't afford it if it were free (though I would try real hard) and I would prefer the O'Connors sans Parelli (I was in the Parelli booth and they have merchandise with Parelli logos and Parelli and O'Connor logos...I asked if they had anything just with O'Connor and you would have thought I had suggested something grotesque! I ended up with a hat from a tent that says Equine Beauty Consultant...probably more accurate than O'Connor Event Team!)

Anyway, hopefully what I have said is clear and has not offended anybody, if it has I am sorry and please ask for clarification because it may not be clear due to my very tired state...

[Backstage]

Oh, in regards to them being tired. I cold imagine that being a definite possibility! They walked the course at lightning speed on Friday night (I don't know if it was the first time) and didn't necessarily walk every part (i.e. they knew where the jumps were so for the Hammock, they cut across a field and went straight for the mushrooms), but I imagine that they had walked it before that. That said, they rode 7 horses between them, then did the demo...all before XC? Its quite probable that that had an impact! (They went straight from course walk to demo, did they eat?)...All I know, is that I wouldn't have done it, but they may not have had a choice, they couldn't do it Thursday (not enough people) and Saturday would have been silly (Karen, for one, would have ridden 44 miles!) Plus the risk of if they hurt themselves...and Sunday wouldn't make sense either! It will be interesting to see whether they choose to do it again next year or not.

[Heather]

I went to this thing too, and all I can say is Jim and Tammy Faye got nothing on these folks.

It was evangalism at its finest ("train your horses in seven easy steps, can I get a halleluiah! WHo here loves more safety for the kids--can I get an amen!)

On the plus side, I think what I saw the sutdents doing with their horses was impressive. There is clearly something to the method.

HOWEVER,

1) SO david and karen rode their two most experienced four star horses without bridles, and did two tracks and jumped small fences. OK, nice, but you know, I would have been dissapointed if two such horses had needed hand aids to begin with. I've always been taught that if you are rel;ying on your hands to get the job done in any phase then you are doing it wrong. I figure with a little parctice (say, a few days) I could do the same with my novice and pre-novice level horses--because I don't rely on my hands, reins, or bits anyway for my flatwork or steering.

2) I agree with the sentiment that we sat there for three freakin' hours and heard a lot of stories, and saw a lot of horses running in small circles, backing up, and being ridden without a bridle, but I didn't hear one single thing about HOW its done. I wasn't expecting them to spill all the secrets for $30, but heck, I'd like to at least have some idea of what were talking about? Dangling dead chickens off that orange stick? Singing to your horse? WHat?

3) I have SERIOUS concerns about the amount of backing up and running in teensy circles involved--two vets I have spoken to since have sarcastically suggest that people involving themselves in the technique buy some stock in Adequan or Cosequin because of the amount of wear and tear that puts on the hocks and stifles. And frankly, a lot of the Parelli students horses looked lame or at least sore behind to me.

4) WHile I'll concede that this may be very helpful for starting youngsters or helping horses who have been mishandled and have lost their trust of people, I never heard one bit about how it makes you a better rider, or your horse a better eventer. And, frankly, given some of the results of people involved in this throughout the spring season (not just ROlex and FOxhall)I hardly think its a miracle cure. The message seemed to be that with right communication, a horse and rider can achieve anything. Well, sorry, but some horses don't want to be eventers, or dressage horses, or hunters, or what have you, and I could spend that 8,000 bucks and I promise you you won't suddenly be reading my name in the CHronicle results next to karen and David.

4a) on a similar note, there were several moments when this much vaunted communication seemed to not be what was claimed--like when this adorable little chestnut pony, who definately was loved by and loved back his owner/rider, was asked to jump jumps that were over his head. He refused multiple times, and at some point I was like Jeez, let it go, leave him alone, he can't do it. Similarly, the wife's horse was clearly green and confused in the jumping part, how about not worrying about putting on a show, and letting the horse quit?

5) I have heard that to board at DAvid and Karen's next year in FLroida, you must be Parelli certified through at least level 3. Things that make you go hmmmmmmm.

There is no question that Pat himself has a masterful marekting plan, and I can understand two people who have worked long and hard to pull themselves up by their bootstraps wanting to be a part of it. It is true that you can't ride forever (although Bruce was so amazing this weekend, he may be the first to give it a shot) and maybe this will help give them the sort of comfortable retirement they deserve.

I just wish it wasn't so blatantly uckie--I can't think of another word. It just seems so cheap, and slick and silly and . . . I don't know--it was just cringe worthy.

[His Greyness]

What's with all this whining? This is America. Anybody can sell anybody anything. There's a long and glorious history of snake oil salesmen here. Until its recent come-uppance the high-tech industry has been selling vaporware for years.

Some people are prone to looking for that magic gadget, the silver bullet to solve all their problems. The fact that none exist hasn't stopped others from catering to these "needs".

The fact that some folk will drop $4000 for a week with Karen and David, when they could learn basically the same stuff for free, simply means these folk have a lot of disposable income. May be the aura of associating with Karen and David is what they want to buy.

In the days before circuses became politically incorrect, liberty horse were trained to perform all kinds of maneuvers without direct contact. There are no long lost secrets of old masters waiting to be rediscovered. The tide of quick fixes, wonder treatments, "natural" methods never obscures what the basics of good horsemanship are.

[PMJ]

I think it is disappointment that people who are heros have seemingly sold out. Personally, after reading the article in PH, my comment is

nullThe whole thing would have been much more credible, if it had not read like a complete informercial.

[BarbB]

halleluiah!

amen!

/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif
*snorting coffee across the room*

BarbB
ps
also a 'well said' to His Greyness!
/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

charter member BEQS Clique & Invisible Poster Clique

[norlibl]

I agree with all that has been said about the marketing aspect of all this. It turned me off as well, and yet it IS the America way.

That said, did anyone consider that perhaps the O'Connors actually believe in the veracity of the Parelli system? In order for them to have jumped on the bandwagon, they must believe it to be effective.

Perhaps we would be wise to look at the parts of the system a bit more objectively and not bad mouth it simply because of the obnoxious marketing involved.

[hitchinmygetalong]

Heather, you go girl!

Stay inside in inclement weather, you are prime to be hit by lightning!

"THE EMPEROR HAS NO CLOTHES!"

I have a video at home about (now, stay with me here) circus ponies and their training regime. It focuses on a family in Switzerland who have a circus that centers on their horse act. Watching that was one of the more eye-opening moments in my short horse-owning career.

They have STALLIONS in their act. The horses are all relaxed and free moving. They perform in a fenceless arena. They are completely focused on the trainer. I resisted watching this video for the longest time thinking, "Circus ponies? YUCK!" but it was fascinating.

I would put this family up against all these new-age trainers anyday...

"I am not afraid of storms, for I am learning to sail my ship."
-Louisa May Alcott

[Magnolia]

I can see it in 10 years.... on OLN at 3am...

For only 3 easy installments of 69.95 you get the de-lux video, special training halter and our innovative Ron Popeil round pen!

WOW David! I can't believe how good Flossy is behaving! And sooooooooooooooo easy!

But, Karen, that's not it, not only do you get the de-lux video, special training halter and our innovative Ron Popeil round pen, but if you act now, you get this ABSOLUTELY FREE SPACE AGE Hoof Pick!

Oooooooooooohhhhhhhhhhhhhoooooooooooohhhhhhhh wow Davod, HOW could you not take advantage of this great offer!

The witchy witch witch of south central NC.

[AM]

About twenty years ago, Practical Horseman ran a series by a trainer at the University of Maryland called Tackless Training. He used a round pen but no other special gimmicks that I recall. He communicated with the horse primarily through his own body language.

[HelenD]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Heather:
5) I have heard that to board at DAvid and Karen's next year in FLroida, you must be Parelli certified through at least level 3. Things that make you go hmmmmmmm.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Okay, you all can NOT even begin to imagine how much I hate/loathe/despise the Pat Parelli Pavement of Perfect Pony Products yours for a Princely Price Please (If you've been to one of his shows, you KNOW why I call it exactly that). I think that those "shows" (please, let's not call them clinics) are the indirect cause of more injuries to horse and handler at home later then most any other "show" you see at horse expos. I just LOATHE whole Pat Parelli thing. Jez, read a Mark Rashid book then see if you can stomach a PP rhyming syllable.

But....

As MelanieV pointed out to me recently, you'd be amazed how few people that consider themselves real "horseman/horsewomen" could pass even a few elements of Level 1. And while those tests include a LOT of the PP hokery, there are some valuable basic skills that the handler must have to pass. I can absolutely see why the O'Connors would only want (and they can have) people/horses that have proven they can perform to level 3.

<EGADS, I'VE BROKEN OUT INTO RED ITCHY SPOTS ALL OVER FROM ADMITTING THAT, EEEKKKKKKKK...>

I guess it's their way of weeding out the people with more money then usable experience. Even as much as I hate the PP stuff, if they get students with a level 3 relationship with their horses, they stand a much better chance of getting some pretty durn successful teams riding under their tutelage. And these folks will have proved, by being certified to that level, by default of the whole stupid PP system, that they have the money as well as the commitment to be there. Think of it as the pony club levels for adults with more money then horsesense. Not so stupid after all if you want to turn out batches and batches of successful students.

Obviously, they believe in the system. I personally don't understand why they picked this yahoo out of all the others out there, but, they did. <retch> Time will tell how the partnership plays out.

And truth be told, it wouldn't hurt most, if not all the dressage/ hunter/ jumper/ eventing/ reining/ WP/ hunting/ <insert your sport here> riders out there to read a decent NH book or two. (May I suggest Ray Hunt or Mark Rashid? Heck, even Mary Twelveponies has some really good concepts although not considered strictly NH)

For those of you who paid the money for the seminar, please tell your friends/acquaintances what you DIDN'T learn there - that's the only way we'll get the numbers attending to start falling. When I went to one, eons ago at a barn near Deep Run in Goochland, VA., I walked out next to some newbies that thought they'd just seen the key to the horse universe. They were going to go home and start right away. But what did they really know from that show?

And they went home and used all of it. <shaking head> What they happened to hear from his presentation is "Dominate". Let you imagination run on to what happened from there.

A lot of horses in the sales are petrified of the round pen. A lot of newbie type folks that have used the PP method come across horses too stupid to figure the games out. There's a connection there.

Well, I could go on and on and...

Save the Horses from Natural Horsemenship FORCES...

<grin>

HelenD

OH, and if you want to look at the Levels, here's the link;

http://www.parelli.com/main%20pages/Savvy%20System/awards.htm

Try and look beyond the PP Hokery and see the skills the levels address.

In riding a horse we borrow freedom.
~Helen Thomson

[AllyCat]

I have to agree with the comment about Mark Rashid. I've only read a chapter or two of his book, though. Seemed reasonable and didn't ask you to buy anything.

Part of my frustration with the PP thing is the yahoo factor. Like many of you have posted here, there are people who, with a little bit of knowledge (if you can call it that), go out and try to train a youngster. It scares me all the people who don't do enough investigation into the techniques and then hurt themselves or their horses. If they remain safe in their efforts, it never goes beyond that. There is no reason why one cannot go from groundwork with your horse to eventing or whatever. The O'Connors have done it. They don't ride XC in their PP halters. It is not an end, but a means and few people involved in it seem to see that.

I do think the NH approaches (of MANY walks of life) are right in their theories, and I have to say this includes Parelli. What bothers me about PNH is the gimmicks. People want a quick fix for everything from childrearing to medicine. Horsemanship is no different. Most humans are not patient and think they can buy their way to horsemanship. Parelli knows this and uses it to his advantage in his marketing scheme. That's too bad. The horses he is trying to protect are not going to get the right treatment or training. But it is the almighty dollar that runs it and horses just don't seem to care about dollars.

We have a strong contingent of PNH people at our barn and after a number of incidences, they are now relegated to one arena only. After riding with them for a short period of time, one can see why. The stuff that turns up at some unexpected time is enough to send most of the non-PNH (PNH people call them flighty horses) horses through the ceiling. It's all what they are used to, however. My horse might be terrified of their hula hoops, but if I run the clippers in the barn, the PH horses are beside themselves with fright.

Some of the people at our barn have a nice balance to the approach. They will use the techniques enough to get their horses interested in the work and focused on the trainer. Then they put a BRIDLE WITH A TRADITIONAL BIT on them and go for a hack or school! I've only used the techniques to get my horse to stop pushing me around and to move her while grooming, tacking, mounting, etc. She moves off slight pressure and body cues. She now has good ground manners and that is all I really wanted. I'm not sure the waving the stuff in her face thing would have accomplished anything (mostly because she is just too stoic to worry about a silly thing like that /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif )

[SLW]

HelenD- very, very well said.

To me, the things PP teaches under the *realm* of *Savvy* is VERY reachable for anyone who is committed to improving their riding/horsemastership skills.

On the other hand, or hoof /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif , what the O'Conners do is remarkable and at a level VERY few of us will ever reach.

When I see PP ride at Rolex or Badminton I'll spring for his *carrot stick*. /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

SLW
"It is I."

[subk]

Has anybody else realized that Sally O'Connor (David's mom) has an entire chapter in her book "Practical Dressage" on working the horse in hand? This is not a new concept.

[mvoght]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by HelenD:
Originally posted by Heather:
5) I have heard that to board at DAvid and Karen's next year in FLroida, you must be Parelli certified through at least level 3. Things that make you go hmmmmmmm.



As MelanieV pointed out to me recently, you'd be amazed how few people that consider themselves real "horseman/horsewomen" could pass even a few elements of Level 1. And while those tests include a LOT of the PP hokery, there are some valuable basic skills that the handler must have to pass. I can absolutely see why the O'Connors would only want (and they can have) people/horses that have proven they can perform to level 3.
<snip>

OH, and if you want to look at the Levels, here's the link;

http://www.parelli.com/main%20pages/Savvy%20System/awards.htm

Try and look beyond the PP Hokery and see the skills the levels address.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Whoa! And, obviously, they have changed a LOT. You used to have to PAY for an annual membership, couldn't even READ what was required for the next "Level" until you'd passed the prior.

I'm now going to download Level 2 and 3 and see what the "tests" are....and be humbled when I cannot go out and perform them all....after 20+ years of horses.

No, I don't "do" the Parelli stuff, but you know what, I'm SO sick of people suggesting that all of what he teaches could be learned for free. Please tell me, where are all these free educators?

Mel

[Janeway]

Alright, I went and read the requirements for the various levels, but still don't understand how the majority of it would help a top-flight competition horse. Some of it just seems silly.

and would someone please explain to me the importance of teaching your horse to canter into the trailer? /infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif I would hate to be the poor person who bought a 3rd level trained parelli horse without knowing it and then tried to load it /infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

[Heather]

I don't mean in anyway to suggest that people should give away knowledge for free--everybody needs to make a living.

I just question whether you are really getting your money's worth in this circumstance.

My husband and I walked away from this demo wondering how PNH might help our monster-spook boy, Merlin. And what we decided is that although it might help him, I don't believe a horse that sees a monster in every shadow and is afraid of brids and bunnies is going to undergo a complete change. He's been this way his whole life. We might make the spooks less violent, but we aren't going to "cure" him.

But that's what I mean abou tmy complaint of the demo--before I drop hundreds of dollars on a special kit, I'd like to know what they propose to be able to help me with with our horses. Not the end "show" product, but what they can do in between.

[cjmicro]

I have to laugh at horse people complaining that they have to BUY something for their horses. Before you balk at buying a carrot stick, or a parelli halter, or lead, or whatever, take a quick stock in what is ALREADY out in your tack trunk that you don't use EVER. :-)

No you don't have to buy a parelli halter or lead. But once you use one you won't want the regular kind or the cheap imitations. I know this because I have done both.

No, you don't need a carrot stick. No, you don't need a parelli halter....as a matter of fact, No, you don't need Pat Parelli.

If you want to get technical, you don't need a saddle or bridle or breeches or anything else to ride either. Some things just make it easier and help along the way.

I agree that Parelli has his marketing down to a science. Maybe people think that's a bad thing, but I do know that learning his "program" and methods (because his really is the only one that HAS a step-by-step program) helped me immensely with my horse, and with any other horses I've had to deal with.

AND FWIW, I don't go out there and spin my horses around in tiny circles and make them back up a hundred times a day. The problem may lie in those drawin in seeking a "quick fix" because, as horse people, we all know there just aren't any.

Like anything else that any horse people tell you, take it all in, and do what works for YOUR horse and you.

Cheryl

[mvoght]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by cjmicro:
No you don't have to buy a parelli halter or lead. But once you use one you won't want the regular kind or the cheap imitations. I know this because I have done both.

No, you don't need a carrot stick. No, you don't need a parelli halter....as a matter of fact, No, you don't need Pat Parelli.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, I sold almost all of my PNH stuff...tried it and my mare is too sensitive for the rope halter. It was fine on the rest of the horses, but I didn't really care for it.

The carrot stick...I wish he'd make a lighter/shorter version. I found it too cumbersome and heavy and not balanced for me.

Now, I WANT that bareback pad though.

I'm actually GIVING the tasks to my husband, he is a newbie with horses and they give him something concrete and measurable to work towards.

Will we say, "x task is stupid, not doing that one" perhaps, but most of them are decent tests of your ability to communicate with your horse. He can use the extra halter/lead I have hanging in the horse trailer for his horse if he wants. Or he can do it in the standard halter, makes no difference to me.

My biggest beef with PNH is that I don't think the equipment is as necessary as they make it sound.

Mel

[drifting cloud]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Alright, I went and read the requirements for the various levels, but still don't understand how the majority of it would help a top-flight competition horse. Some of it just seems silly.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Janeway, I agree with you. What is the point of leading your horse by his lips or his tail or his hocks?? These were requirements on a page I read. As long as my horses are well-behaved when I lead them with a halter or bridle, that's good enough for me. How many ways does your horse have to be submissive? /infopop/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

[Pixie Dust]

I watched a Parelli show a couple of times and found it very entertaining.....I guess I'm a total suckaAAAAAh, LOL, but anyway, I like to be open minded about training, well really, about everything. But regarding the whole marketing thing, he said that before he met his hottie wife, he didn't do any marketing at all and he credits the entire "system" with all the packages, videos, cards, etc. to his wife's savy marketing skills. That's what he said. And he also said "there are no quick fixes in training" and he said "I did not invent this stuff" and "you have to spend MANY hours with your horse if you want to get anywhere." And many other things along those lines.

I really don't understand why people are so hostile to this stuff. And I don't understand why horse people can't make big bucks like basketball stars can. As far as I'm concerned Karen & David have worked their tails off and deserve the big bucks. I just don't see what the big deal is.....why get your panties in a bind???


It is very curious that Karen & David are requiring new boarders to be certified...I wonder what that is all about......anyhoo, I have an immense respect for Karen & David and will give them the benefit of the doubt.

Superheroes of the universe, unite!

http://hometown.aol.com/bgoosewood/index.html

[Robby Johnson]

and I'm with the other skeptics, but I do think that there are a LOT of people out there who don't know about horses who have a go at it anyway and often do more damage than good. If a Garanimals approach is enough for them to stay safe and sane, more power to them. I just cannot abide by any Disciple mentality.

I believe horses are entirely creatures of habit and instinct, and only so much of that can be rehabituated. If you understand how to condition a response, you can train your horse to do just about anything. But that really depends (as demonstrated on this thread) on what you hope to accomplish.

For example, I like a horse who will ground tie, give me his feet, allow me to tack him up, etc. I don't necessarily want one that I can lead around by the lips.

Robby

[Badger]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>I don't necessarily want one that I can lead around by the lips.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


What's the big deal here, people? I have been using a carrot stick to lead horses around by the lips since I was 5 years old!!! Of course, I use a natural carrot stick, not a Parelli NH carrot stick. But in my experience, if you put a carrot in front ot the lips, then move the carrot, the lips and horse will follow.... /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

[wanderlust]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>AND FWIW, I don't go out there and spin my horses around in tiny circles and make them back up a hundred times a day. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I am glad to hear it, but I think you are in a very small minority who practice "NH." We have a couple of people at our barn who buy into the NH philosophy. One of them comes out twice a week, throws a parelli halter on him, shakes/flings the leadrope at him constantly, and then chases him around in hundreds of little circles. This is, of course, when she can actually catch him. I can't even claim to understand what she is trying to do, other than get him quite upset, and in turn upset the other horses around him. I'm not sure what else she does with him, I have never seen him being riddent, but I certainly don't blame him for not wanting to be caught. The scary thing is that she's had him for 9 years.

The other one is a woman who tries to mix NH with dressage. She also has the halter with the leadrope that she flings/flips at him constantly. I don't think it does much good, because he is atrociously behaved on the ground, and doesn't appear to be so wonderful under saddle, either.

When someone can show me proof positive that NH gets consistently better results than common sense and methodical handling/training (think pony club), I may consider changing my opinion.

I'm not holding my breath.

[Portia]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Heather:
I went to this thing too, and all I can say is Jim and Tammy Faye got nothing on these folks.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Oh Heather, there's no question why Robby Johnson loves you! (Not to mention Mr. Heather.) I'm sorry I couldn't make it to Rolex and meet you in person! /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

******
"I hold it that a little rebellion, now and then, is a good thing..." Thomas Jefferson

[Tootsie]

I have no doubt in my mind that the Parelli system helps a lot of horses, but the marketing makes promises that it cannot keep. By the O'Connors attaching their names to it implies that their suscesses are entirly a result of this type of training. I dont think that David won the gold by doing Parelli, I think he won the gold by falling off a thousand times. Working your horse on the ground is all nice and peachy but, like lunging, it only impacts the undersaddle work of the horse to a certain extent.

Also I did notice that the O'Connors did not do so well at Rolex this weekend. The parelli method did not stop Tigger Too from freaking on phase C, or Regal Scott at the Head of the Lake. On the other hand Bruce Davidson jumped clean on three different horses in three different weather conditions. Makes you wonder....

"The Assyrian program of exterminating various ethnic groups generally failed to promote cultural diversity."-- Non Campus Mentis

[mbp]

ROFLMAO!!!!

Cantering into the trailer.....
Leading by the lips.........
Leading by the hocks?!?!(wait - shouldn't you be in front to lead??????? so the trick here is to learn to lead bass ackwards?)

Practical skills we should all know and work with daily.

I will say, having had a tack store for awhile and being generally appalled at the things people do to horses, that the Parellis and Lyons et al are fairly innocuous and have the redeeming feature of convincing the cowboys and dr jeckel/mr. dressages out there that actually spending time with your horse and interacting with it will produce better benefits than, oh, say tieing said horse to your tractor and dragging it around the field or shooting it with a bb gun (both remedies espoused by some of the trail riders who came into the store).

(uh, can I hear an AMEN?)

I scratch my head though, that so many people who will not spend moderate or even small $ for regular horse training or instruction, will pluck down big bucks for these sessions.

Forget the carrot sticks, for $4000 I want carrot cake - on a silver platter please.

/infopop/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

[tle]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Forget the carrot sticks, for $4000 I want carrot cake - on a silver platter please. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

...served by Russell Crowe... in his BVDs!

/infopop/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

************
If Dressage is a Symphony... Eventing is Rock & Roll!

Survivor thoughts -- Episode 9 recap ... Sean definitely needs riding lessons. Buh-Bye Zoe you manly-girl you.

GO RED WINGS!!!

[monstrpony]

and read the PH article after reading this thread yesterday. I found the article very innocuous and, well, practical. I wonder if some of the reaction to it isn't human nature when presented with something new to learn, when we think we don't need to learn, and are resisting the effort to learn something new because we believe we know enough already.

I admit, $4K seems a bit much, but people will charge what the market will bear. Given how often I've seen people with more $$ than sense go out and "get into horses" just because they can, money-wise, and see the horses suffer for it--I'm glad they'll be inclined to do one of these clinics just because of the names, or because of the $$ it costs, and be held captive for a week or two, till they learn something useful.

I know there's a lot of almost embarassing glitz and marketing by some of these natural horsemanship practitioners, but I'm still happy to see good publicity and sales by these folks as long as it kills the image/perceptions that horses must be "broken" and that riding young horses must be or should be violent, and that horsewomen must be some kind of dominatrix types and horsemen must be real machos. I say, more power to people who are changing these missperceptions, and my mind will remain open to what they have to teach.

[Bumpkin]

I finally got to sit down last night and read my Rolex COTH issue.
Was it me, or were 99% of the full page coloured advertisements the O'Conners touting this or that product?

No flaming, just an observation.
Anyone is free to use their name to advertise whatever and make money at it.

This issue in my mind with the many ads and the cover of David is etched in my mind as the O'Conner issue, LOL /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[findeight]

As an older person I can truthfully say that nothing is new here except the marketing.
These techniques have been used by everybody from liberty and circus horse trainers in the 1800s to Native Americans who had never seen a horse before and, presumably, some charioteer of ancient times who won the Sumarian Derby. All without the aid of fancy videos or tack.
Kids with a horse in their backyard figure out how to ride without a bridle. The Trail class still popular requires this kind of trust and manueverability.
If a novice can get that out of these programs it is good for all concerned but they are not the shortcut and miracle answer to all horse problems many think they are.
I still remember the Three Masters video as Buck Branamen worked with a problem horse. He got it straightened out but said "What's the point? The owner will take it home and undo it all".
None of these methods get to the root of many problems, like an owner who is scared to canter, jump or work a cow. An owner who isn't willing to spend the time to learn to ride and handle the horse. An owner who bought a bad horse or an unsuitable one.
It takes a long time, good horses and good instruction on a regular basis to learn to work with a horse not a pricey, gimmick laden seminar.

The Horse World. 2 people, 3 opinions. That's the way it is.

[mbp]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>...served by Russell Crowe... in his BVDs!

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

coming soon to a theater near you

Charioteer, the sequel to Gladiator.

Featuring, Russell Crowe, as an Au Naturel Horseman (we don't need no BVD's.....!)

Marketing to be handled Parelli Productions /infopop/emoticons/icon_razz.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

[PMJ]

Actually though, wouldn't you think that these people are doing the scared/ignorant/over-horsed people a disservice. It struck me in an article that Denny wrote one time about being overmounted that we needed trainers who were honest with their students. If "trainers" are selling a special halter or numerous other gadgets and saying if you follow this you will learn how without addressing other issues, then what exactly are they teaching?? or are they just in it for the money? I think this is what bothers me about the attitude of this is the "RIGHT" way to do it. It reminds me too much of cults and backyard religions that tell everyone who does not belong to their specific genere that they are "going to hell." While they have some good ideas, I think I will stick with what I feel comfortable, which is more traditional.

[Bensmom]

This is a very interesting topic and to add another layer to it -- did y'all notice that in The Captain's ( /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif) column on the winter training sessions in the USEventing magazine that he had Parelli come in and do demonstrations at night during the training sessions. And, he gave the website for anyone interested in more info.

Interesting.

[tle]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>It reminds me too much of cults and backyard religions that tell everyone who does not belong to their specific genere that they are "going to hell."<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

hmmm... unfortunately, it sounds pretty "mainstream religion" to me. /infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif but I do get your point (and agree with it).

************
If Dressage is a Symphony... Eventing is Rock & Roll!

Survivor thoughts -- Episode 9 recap ... Sean definitely needs riding lessons. Buh-Bye Zoe you manly-girl you.

GO RED WINGS!!!

[RumoursFollow]

and I've never posted on this board before, but..

when I think of Pat Parelli or someone mentions his name I have to fight back the urge to roll my eyes. To people who actually want to ride, I think getting out the rope halter and teaching your horse to lay down is, well, ridiculous.

For those of you truly interested in learning non-invasive training methods from a well known trainer, I'm going to suggest mine. I have been riding with Richard Shrake for a while now, and I cannot say enough good things about him. He has trained many world champions (ridden them, trained them.. etc) including his daughter, Jill. He teaches what he calls Resistance Free Ridng & Training. Its none of that lay down on the ground sit on your horse and teach him to bow hullaballoo... he teaches you how to handle a problem horse in real situations and then teaches you how to ride better.

He is EXCELLENT. He is not to be lumped into the Lyons, Parelli category.. as they teach very different things.

Anyway, he does clinics in EVERY part of the country (he calls Oregon home) and his clinics are MUCH less expensive than the prices mantioned here. He also does exhibits @ Expos and Fairs and the like.

I would reccomend him to anyone for any discipline. I have seen him help hunter/jumper, western, eventing, dressage, and gaited people as well as people who have only trail ridden all in one session. I have learned so much from him.

Anyway- now that I have rambled on, if you are truly interested in this kind of thing and really wnat to get your money's worth, check out Richard's site...

Richard Shrake (http://www.richardshrake.com)

And no, he didnt pay me to post this. /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

-----------------------------
RumoursFollow
Ten Oaks Farm (http://www.geocities.com/tenoakssc/index.html)
-----------------------------

[NeverTime]

Perhaps they've made a serious lapse in judgement, but I think that along with the chance to make some money (which I really can't hold against them unless I plan to be morally outraged with every other professional athlete's sponorship deals) they believe this system is a good one for teaching basic horsemanship through groundwork. (I didn't see either of them ask their horses to lie down, or do reining spins, or Spanish walk in Lexington, but I did see them demonstrating the basic groundwork--you *can* decide just how far you want to carry this stuff.)
I don't think anyone can argue that being a good horseman certainly helps your riding, and everyone needs to start learning somewhere. Where exactly that "somewhere" is is debatable, but apparently the O'Connors think Parelli's easy-to-follow, step-by-step program is a good jumping-off point for the masses. And they're making a buck in the process.
Yes, the heavy-handedness of the sales pitch at Kentucky really turned me off, but I'm trying to separate that from my evaluation of the techniques themselves (hard to do since little of the actual techniques were discussed in that circus show). The PH article goes into more depth about how, exactly, the O'Connors apply this stuff to their horses.
I think it's important to note again that they've been doing groundwork with their horses long before they developed this marketing partnership with Parelli, which I think speaks to the stock the O'Connors put in what they do on the ground. Can you argue that it works? At Radnor last year, the winner Clark Montgomery, who is one of the O'Connors students, credited them with helping his horse overcome jumping problems by working with him on a line, and teaching him that he could figure out the jumps by himself.

[mbp]

that at all the 4 stars it will now be a requirement to lead the horses by the lips through the vet check???

/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

[Dezi]

Ok, I'll jump into the conversation...

I'll admit that I only read the requirements for Level 1 (too much real work to do), but I had a OTTB we taught to do alot of "circus" tricks (Chuck Grant - USDF Hall of Famer called them "High School").

Anyway, he could bow, kneel, Spanish walk, lay down, climb on the stool, and was the nicest horse to handle on the ground that you would want to be with. He loved the high school stuff, and took to it like a duck to water.

Unfortunately, he was a complete lunatic in either the dressage ring or jumping. I cannot tell you the number of times I left the show ring in tears because he just could not handle the atmosphere. Now granted I was probably a bit more nervous and he probably fed on that, but he would also act the same almost anytime he was working in the ring, either in a lesson or just by himself. Take him on the trails and as long as there was no water to cross, he could go all day, but don't ask him to do any real work. So, he could have done all of the PNH "stuff", and would still not have been worth a cent in the "show" world.

OTOH, my Grade 2 Intermediate horse wouldn't do any of the tricks, but would have jumped off of the edge of the earth if I asked, so go figure!

I too think that most of th PH stuff is common sense, and lord knows that is a feature not everyone is blessed with. If the OCET and Parelli's can get enough fools to part with their money, good for them - I know I will not be one of them (nor would I even if I had the disposable income).

[HeyYouNags]

How about some unsolicited comments from a demi-DQ who has no business posting on this board? /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Is it possible the O'Connors think pairing with Parelli might be a way of exposing a wider audience to Eventing? NH seems to be getting a lot of attention, and perhaps they're hoping to persuade new horsepeople or timid riders that with good basic horse skills, they might be able to try Eventing?

And... association with NH concepts might also serve to deflect criticism of eventing as cruel. "See, the horses aren't *forced* to jump, we teach them slowly and gently."

I'm not a devil's advocate, but I play one on the BB.

[deltawave]

When someone pointed out that the Level I requirements were something any decent horseman should be able to do, I figured "sure, sounds reasonable"...so I went and looked. Come on! You can "fail" their level I evaluation if you don't lay the halter and rope down the right way? Why lay it down at all? I walk up to my horse with the halter sticking out, and she sticks her face in. If she doesn't, and isn't in the mood to be caught, I heave a big sigh and plod after her. She gets bored after 2-3 minutes and sticks her face in. I'm too old to get excited over this...if she doesn't feel like getting caught I figure she has her reasons. If I'm in a tremendous hurry I take a carrot with me. Why turn this all into a big psychoanalysis?

Second, several folks have mentioned how "overhorsed" people flock to these clinics. I watch the "DownUnder Horsemanship" show on Horse TV now and then, and it has always amazed me how incredibly TIMID most of his students seem around their horses! And the horses are usually quiet, little QH's. He even commented on it once, how many riders are just truly way too timid and passive with their horses. He mentioned it was mostly women, indicating in his experience men tended to be too aggressive. That's an interesting insight in itself, but that's not the point I wish to make. My point is that it *does* ring true that lots and LOTS of novice horse owners are WAAAAY too non-demanding of their horses for things like basic ground manners and respect.

If these $$$$$$ clinics get them there, great, but for me I'll stick with a loud growl and an occasional slap on the neck. It's all in the body language, which if you boil down all these "methods" I think that's what you get as a message, anyhow. /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[HelenD]

Do ya'll think that if you can lead your horse around by the lips, you STILL have to buy the halter?

Yes? <sigh> I guess you do have to march down the PP parade of products even if your horse follows you willingly anyway.

Helen

In riding a horse we borrow freedom.
~Helen Thomson

[Magnolia]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> I walk up to my horse with the halter sticking out, and she sticks her face in. If she doesn't, and isn't in the mood to be caught, I heave a big sigh and plod after her. She gets bored after 2-3 minutes and sticks her face in. I'm too old to get excited over this...if she doesn't feel like getting caught I figure she has her reasons. If I'm in a tremendous hurry I take a carrot with me. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

heeheee, so true!

I guess the natural horsemanship has done some good - it made people rethink beating the crap out of horses to accomplish things. And it is kind of neat and probably something to do with your horse outside of riding. But I don't know, maybe the horse would rather just be groomed or eat his grass instead of being hit with a carrot.

I suppose we have a choice not to buy the PP merchandise, and is having the PP hackamore any sillier than needing a Butet saddle or a pair of tailored sportsman breeches? Guess not... it's just kind of funny how marketing controls some peoples minds. Do you suppose, just like there are those that call themselves hunters because they have TS breeches, a Butet and a warmblood that there are people who call themselves Parelli Certified horseman because they bought the De-Lux kit?

The witchy witch witch of south central NC.

[GO-dog-GO]

No, no, no!! It's all very important! I heard next years dressage tests for eventing will include sitting on your horse while he's laying down, doing 10m circles around a bear and bowing at the end of the test.

Oh yes, the XC fences will all be 18" high and the riders will ride enclosed in a protective bubble wearing football pads and a full-face auto racing helmet.

Reminds me of the guy selling drift wood on the side of the road... The top shelf had wood that was marked $50 and the bottom shelf had wood that looked the same but was marked $10. When asked why the difference in price for wood that looked the same he said, "some people would rather own a $50 piece or wood".

I guess some people would rather spend 8K on lessons......

I know someone that grooms for the O'C's and they say that their [the O'C's] life is such a whirl wind of strange/clueless/rich/spoiled people pulling them in differend directions, they don't see how they handle it.

You never know where the edge is till you step over it. The trick is to scramble back up before it's to late.

* Charter member, saftey is overated clique.*

[jodyjumper]

Love these posts!
Both the O'Connors' and Parellis' are welcome to make $$$ with horses, especially the O'Connors, from the high risk, money poor sport of eventing.
Marketing is a bit much for me- as evidenced by the sale of a John Lyons tape of his church service for $10. But I won't tell you that he can't sell it and you can't buy it.
I find it difficult to believe that any one system with work with every horse, without modifications. Every trainer/ride would have to be a clone of the original trainer. Not every horse reacts the same to an identical stimulus. (Tell me why I have to break apart the sawdust bale from its square shape, so my horse doesn't freak when she sees it in her stall, but she can jump a pine tree being towed by a backhoe?)
I think I will stick to my "if one idea doesn't work, try something else" and keep my mind open for the "something else", trying not to pay $8000 for it.

[JER]

Very interesting reading through this thread. I get the sense that most eventers here find the Parelli-O'C alliance somewhat embarrassing. I agree. It feels funny, sort of like celebrities and Scientology.

I find it strange that experienced horsepeople like the OCs are endorsing a 'product' like PNH. It's one thing to incorporate NH techniques into your training program but this sort of product placement -- as in requiring their students be Parelli certified -- is a real turn off. It makes me think the OCs don't know horses as well as I thought. Are they really that impressed by Parelli? Were they so completely unable to teach their horses ground manners and basic respect for their handlers that Parelli has changed their lives?

I like a lot of aspects of NH. I used Brannaman-style NH groundwork with my mare when I first got her, then modified the Mecate rein as I moved over to more standard English stuff. It was great as a transitional phase in training a green horse. But not every horse needs it -- particularly those that are well-mannered and well-broke. They don't need tiny circles, carrot sticks, and plastic flags. Kind of like how I don't need finger puppets and potato prints at this point in my life.

I hope my horses never canter into any trailer. It's dangerous and stupid. Nor will I ever put a halter or bridle on a horse from a kneeling position. You should never kneel down that close to a horse; it's just too vulnerable a posture if something goes awry (a branch drops from a tree, for example).

As for 'skills and tasks' like the 'Porcupine Game', the 'Friendly Game' or -- please explain this one -- 'Controlled Catastrophe' (this sounds like a description of a recent dressage test), I'll stick to plain old riding.

[magnum]

Thought you guys might like seeing what PRICES are involved with the Parelli system:

http://www.parelli.com/isc/course_schedule.htm

"A society's values are reflected in the way it treats its animals."

[findeight]

I will repeat my "lineage". I learned in LA back in the late 50s early 60s from movie stuntmen, many were Ft Riley products. I thought nothing of making the horse do as I wanted it to do, at the tender age of 12.
Later I encountered a wonderful trainer, friend of my trainer at the time. Harold Farren. His step dad was a European trained liberty and circus horse trainer. Harold was the wierdest and most drop dead horseman I ever met. Teach a horse to do your bidding. Period.
Harold's best horse was the quirky mare Alisa Lark. I am proud to have hot walked and groomed this one, a beautiful golden dappled bay....a bit hard to brush, iffy in the cross ties.
You all may have heard of Alisa Lark's son Rugged Lark. Two time AQHA Super Horse, sire of Lt Lark and heart of Lynn Palm's program.
I am proud to have "argued" with Alisa Lark.

The Horse World. 2 people, 3 opinions. That's the way it is.

[kt]

Delta Wave-- Amen.

I have been following this discussion with great interest. I knew it was just a matter of time before it came up here.

I felt funny the first time I saw their big spread in PH (muttering "what the heck??..."). It just seemed so out of place and character for the O'Connors. It became increasingly annoying to see that ad (in addition to all of their other endorsements) in every magazine I got before Rolex.

When I saw the recent article in PH about David and E.T., I had the same sentiments that Delta Wave referred to. Isn't it all about R-E-S-P-E-C-T? There's trust too, but so much of this is just asking that a horse move away from pressure, yield to pressure, not invade your space, look to you for direction, etc, etc. These are things you almost naturally learn on your own so that you don't have a horse who tramples you to death! I think (or at least I HOPE) that it is a given that when dealing with horses, body language is extremely important. Maybe this is for beginners (or overhorsed individuals) who need to learn this language?

At any rate, whoever said that the world of sponsorship cab be a strange and twisted one, I think they are right. I know that for myself, I feel disappointed in what David and Karen have done. But we do not really know the whole story of what is going on here.

[drifting cloud]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>this sort of product placement -- as in requiring their students be Parelli certified -- is a real turn off.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
There needs to be a fine line. It doesn't bother me to see riders endorsing products in magazines. Equestrian athletes are not paid nearly as well as other athletes and I'm sure the endorsement contracts are very helpful. But it should NOT be a requirement to have a certain product or a certrain certification to be able to take lessons from someone. Where does it stop? Will you not be able to ride in Karen or David eventing clinics in the future if you're not Parelli certified?? I don't have the interest or the time (or the money) to get certified and there are plenty of other big-name event riders who accept students and who don't require you to be in the "Parelli club."

I wonder if requiring their students to be Parelli certified was part of the O'Connor's contract with Parelli? Parelli stands to gain the most from it.

[BarbB]

Deltawave writes:
"I walk up to my horse with the halter sticking out, and she sticks her face in. If she doesn't, and isn't in the mood to be caught, I heave a big sigh and plod after her. She gets bored after 2-3 minutes and sticks her face in. I'm too old to get excited over this...if she doesn't feel like getting caught I figure she has her reasons. If I'm in a tremendous hurry I take a carrot with me. Why turn this all into a big psychoanalysis?"

OMG, Lynn, I am laughing so hard I can't see!
*wipes tears from eyes*
THAT is MUCH too practical and real life. YOU are obviously never going to get rich running a training clinic.

BarbB

charter member BEQS Clique & Invisible Poster Clique

[poltroon]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by hitchinmygetalong:
I have a video at home about (now, stay with me here) circus ponies and their training regime. It focuses on a family in Switzerland who have a circus that centers on their horse act. Watching that was one of the more eye-opening moments in my short horse-owning career.

They have STALLIONS in their act. The horses are all relaxed and free moving. They perform in a fenceless arena. They are completely focused on the trainer. I resisted watching this video for the longest time thinking, "Circus ponies? YUCK!" but it was fascinating.

I would put this family up against all these new-age trainers anyday...
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I have seen this video, of the Circus Knie, and it is an amazing display of horsemanship. To have so many horses, all going different directions, COMPLETELY FOCUSED on one person, who could convey his desires so accurately ... most of us wish for such rapport with just one horse at a time!

I believe that Christine Stuckleberger (with Granat) rode with them for a while.... she was scorned for associating with the circus but her results showed the wisdom of it.

There are many "NH" trained people out there, many of whom are very good and give clinics at typical clinic going rates. Ride or audit. There may even be some local to you. It really all just is horsemanship, which is about being consistent and clear with your expectations and responses - ALWAYS releasing/rewarding when the right thing is done. It is easy to say and hard to do. Clicker training is another variation. Sometimes it's easier for a person to catch on when they make an audible click - your brain may be better able to see that your click was late or missing than that your rein release was late or missing.

If you want to learn more "for free" - go to your library and look for books by Tom Dorrance, Mark Rashid, and Karen Pryor's dolphin training book "Lads Before the Wind."

It is sadly true that a lot of the disciples of NH are wannabe basket cases. But the best ones are impressive, and they're doing their best to teach people who will put the time and effort into learning, just like equestrian masters in any discipline.

Parelli is known for being pricey, but I certainly don't begrudge David & Karen any money they can get for clinics or endorsements. Eventing is an expensive sport, and I'm pleased that they're making a living from it. And hey - I like the idea of any good press eventing gets from the association. /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[deltawave]

Barb, you're right--you won't see disciples lining up to hear *my* training methods...I've had the same horse for 9 years and we're still doing Novice! /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

I will admit to occasionally using some psychological subterfuge on the mare, though--if she's in a "don't wanna be caught" mood I'll sometimes go smooch the sweetie pie gelding or pony mare she's turned out with. THAT gets her every time: "why are you talking to THEM???"

Maybe when the "pendulum" of "natural" stuff (horsemanship, herbs-n-spices, healing, etc.) swings the other way, then I will have my turn, and write my book: "Better Horsemanship Through A Sharp Slap On The Butt" (BHTASSOTB)

No, wait, I can make that acronym better (medical research is ALL about a catchy acronym...)

Better Animal Discipline--A Sharp Slap Rids Insufferable Dominant Equines of Rudeness (BADASSRIDER)

/infopop/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

[drifting cloud]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Maybe when the "pendulum" of "natural" stuff (horsemanship, herbs-n-spices, healing, etc.) swings the other way, then I will have my turn, and write my book: "Better Horsemanship Through A Sharp Slap On The Butt"<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif deltawave, you are a riot!! When you write your book and develop your training program, you will have to sell your patented buttslapper for $49.95. It works better than your hand, all the whips in your barn, or the end of your lead shank. /infopop/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

[JER]

One of the greatest trainers ever, Francois Baucher, became a circus trainer after being kicked out of the French army for being too critical of their training methods. Baucher believed in 'balance before movement' -- the idea was if you sit in the center of the horse, you can teach him to do anything. Like canter backwards or do a circle on three legs, just to mention two of the things he could teach a horse. Chuck Grant, who someone mentioned on this thread as a trainer of 'circus tricks', brought Baucher's idea of lightness and balance to the US. This is the antithesis of German dressage.

I've seen that video of the Swiss group, and I've also spent some time with the trainers at Ringling Bros. Circus people are quite interesting in their approach to training, perhaps because the focus is not on 'riding' but on the animal's performance. Interestingly, the first thing a circus trainer will teach an animal is to come to the center of the ring when his name is called. And 'called' means whispered. As the Ringling trainer said to me, "For all those animal rights people who criticize us, I wonder how many of them have pets who come to them when their name is whispered?" And this guy could free lunge six Friesians, eight Arabs and four zebras, all of them stallions, in concentric circles moving in opposite directions.

Now if the O'Connors were running a clinic with ciruc folk, I might be interested, but I'll pass on Parelli.

[Sandy M]

Haven't read all this, but here's my take. A friend of mine who has always been a dressage/Semi-NH/eventing person had the opportunity to have her horse worked with my a Parelli trainer... but the minute she asked any QUESTIONS about the levels and how some of it would apply to her horses ultimate career - dressage, the guy totally backed off. It was PP's way or NOTHING, no other systems but Parelli, no equipment but Parelli, and the basic attitude was "you don't understand" and once you DO understand PP's godlike pronouncements, you won't WANT to do dressage "or even ride". So much for that. Someone once said that a lot of the PP/NH types like to talk about methods and chase their horses around round pens, but they don't RIDE them. A "paralysis of analysis" in other words.

Now, how often these days, do you think the O'Connors take on a totally green horse - the type that would most likely benefit from the PP stuff? I doubt they even handle horses much below Training/ready to go Prelim level these days. They don't need to. People are BEGGING for them to ride their horses.

Also, level one PP - big deal. My horse has NEVER had any PP type training, but could easily handle level 1 just from his conventional training. Round penning is not going to teach half-pass. PP and his wife denigrate dressage and as someone mentioned, hold forth that if your horse is properly PP trained, you don't NEED a helmet when jumping or riding at all! The pictures I've seen of Mrs. Parelli "doing dressage" appear to be a horse with a headset, unengaged behind. Right. Lunging presented as if it's a new revelation from PP. Uh-huh.

I don't know what the O'Connors are doing this for except $$$$ (more power to them, I suppose), but I just have the damndest image of someone who's done only Parelli training, or has a major problem horse, asking the O'Connors to teach it to event. THe mind boggles. Especially with the Anti-dressage or "what we do IS dressage" attitude that PP espouses.

I could ride my Prelim event horse bridleless over a course of jumps. I could trail ride him bareback in a halter. Did he ever have PP/NH training? No. I do not say that there's NO merit to NH - but I seriously doubt that the O'Connors are REALLY Parelli converts - just that PP has presented to them a money-making opportunity exhibiting methods they and experienced horseman who have never considered themselves "NH" have used for years, but PP has now put a label on and claimed as his own.

[hitchinmygetalong]

Posted by Deltawave:

"Better Animal Discipline--A Sharp Slap Rids Insufferable Dominant Equines of Rudeness (BADASSRIDER)"

OMG that is PERFECT! Please design a tee shirt!

"I am not afraid of storms, for I am learning to sail my ship."
-Louisa May Alcott

[Inverness]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Janeway:
. . .and would someone please explain to me the importance of teaching your horse to _canter_ into the trailer? /infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

LOL. My Billy already does that on his own; he
loves to go to new places. I'm curious, when did the "trend" re "natural" horsemanship begin? By this I mean the marketing trend, not the actual training methods used. It reminds me of Mobil Oil's bid a few years ago to convince the public that "colorless" gasoline was somehow less toxic than its yellow-tinted counterpart. Amazing what people will buy into.

"Whatever women do, they must do twice as well as men to be thought half as good.
Luckily, this is not difficult."
-- Charlotte Whitton

[AM]

I wonder if this marketing didn't take off with the advent of the various state and regional/national equine expos. What a wonderful opportunity to show off and sell your wares. I've noticed that the same names seem to show up all over the country. Now folks who are seriously training, teaching, and competing don't have time to write books, create sales objects, make videos, and travel the country demonstrating and selling them.

[Dandy's Mom]

I am going to stick my neck out. Please be kind!

I don't know why you all are so critical of Parelli and what he is teaching. He is the FIRST one to say he didn't invent any of this. His wife, Linda, helped him put together a package to teach people about horses.

Yes it is basic. Many don't need it. I for one have benefitted a lot. I spent thousands of $$'s on dressage lessons - special bits, other equipment. I never got past 1st level over 5 years. Maybe it was me, maybe it was my horse, maybe it was the trainers I took lessons from.

2 years ago I took a Parelli Level 1 course. I was disgusted - so simple, I knew this stuff, my horse didn't need to learn how to walk backwards and sideways from a cue. I thought I blew a couple hundred bucks on the weekend.

Hmmmmm - I started noticing a change in my horse though. It turned out I had some holes in my horse knowledge. Not to bore you with the details of my voyage... buy I am now riding the same horse in a Level 3 test next month! I expect to do well! Parelli helped ME learn what I couldn't 'get' before.

I assume the O'Connor's saw the benefit of how Parelli teaches the basics to people (like me) that conventional training didn't get through to.
Its not about training the horse - there isn't much done in a round pen - it is about training the people to understand their horse.

Rather than critisize, please be a bit more positive, or just observe - I won't critisize you for finding what works for you. I have spent less collectively on PNH than I did on the conventional training I did for years - and hey I am having lots of fun. I welcome the 'fun' coming back into my horseback riding experience.

[Sandy M]

Quote: "He's the first one to say he didn't invent all of this..."

Then why does the Parelli Code for its instructors require that they use ONLY Parelli methods, ONLY Parelli equipment, and that methods from other disciplines are taboo? If he doesn't consider his method "original and patented" exclusively to him and his instructors, that would seem to belie any attitude of "I didn't invent this."

I also see no need for my horse to gallop into the trailer (although I used to have one that would have, given half the chance.) My present horse likes his trailer rides and loads easily and quietly, from the walk thank you.

I attended a Mark Rashid clinic, and what he "taught" was mostly commonsense, non-abusive horsemanship and it didn't require any special halter, stick, baggy, or whatever. Now I will say this: Almost every - heck, say it - EVERY person who attended even the Rashid clinic would be considered a RANK beginner by my standards and I'll bet that's common to most NH devotees, at least at the start. These people were NOT to be believed. One woman outlined the problems she had been having with her horse. When Mr. Rashid asked her how often she rode the horse, she stated that she had ridden it TWICE in FIVE YEARS! Another couldn't even lead her horse. It wasn't crazy, it just went where IT wanted and she didn't even try to stop it. Another brought forth a horse that she had on trial and didn't even know it was LAME. When Rashid pointed it out, she didn't want to believe him. Then asked what to do. He looked at the horse and said that while veterinary medicine and chiropractic could probably get the horse sound, its conformation was so poor, it would probably be off and on lame if it were ridden regularly.

I'm not saying Parelli's methods are WRONG, just that most educated horsepeople DON'T need them, or already do THEIR version, from long experience or from READING respected authorities of long-standing (something that I find many horse people do not do!), or working with traditional trainers who have LONG done a version of what Parelli does with green horses. It appears to be to be Horses 101, or Horses for Dummies, and for some people, no doubt, it is great thing, and better they work with Parelli than try to do it on their own working from ignorance.

It is the exclusivity and over-marketing that strikes a false note.

[drifting cloud]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>One woman outlined the problems she had been having with her horse. When Mr. Rashid asked her how often she rode the horse, she stated that she had ridden it TWICE in FIVE YEARS!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I recently rode a horse 3 times for his owner. The horse was absolutely HORRIBLE the first time I rode him. He was improving with each ride, but he was pretty explosive and inconsistent each time. I found out (after the fact) that the horse had not been ridden at all since last March (14 months ago). When I told the owner the horse was a handful, she was shocked and she said "But he was good when I bought him!" She really expected him to act exactly the same even though he hadn't been ridden in over a year. People amaze me.

How did Mark Rashid deal with these people? Was he able to help some of them?

[This message was edited by drifting cloud on May. 03, 2002 at 05:56 PM.]

[Janeway]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Dandy's Mom:
Rather than critisize, please be a bit more positive, or just observe <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Just obvserve the BB? Not a chance! /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif Everyone here has their own opinion which they want to share. /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

I don't see anything here as really negative either; critical yes, but not really negative. But then most things do get criticized at some point, and that is often how people learn.

I'm glad you have enjoyed the Parelli methods and that they work for you, but I have noted interestingly enough that the majority of the posters on this thread, like me, have found something unsettling about the evangilistic treaming approach that Parelli has with the O'Connors.

Which I think seems to be the fruit of this thread, rather than just bashing Parelli himself. /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[PMJ]

"Rather than critisize, please be a bit more positive, or just observe "

My "problem" that may lead to critisism with the Parelli method is the be all and end all attitude that they have all the answers and only the answers which can only be achieved by the special--expensive--halter and carrot stick provided by them. I would be much more open to people who present an idea without the costly gadgets with an open mind. My way or the highway is not exactly the way to go with horses, and quite honestly, at the prices they charge and from what I have seen of the average "target" market, I really think they are taking advantage of people who want the best for their horses but do not have sufficent knowledge to be open to other ideas.

[Sandy M]

Drifting Cloud - he helped pretty much everyone EXCEPT the woman with the lame horse (she had two and they BOTH were lame - they were pretty colors though LOL).

I mean, it's pretty scarey/sad when a noted clinician has to spend his time teaching someone who already owns a horse how to lead it. It took him perhaps 10 minutes of being firm with the horse to get it to lead properly. Then he handed the lead back to the owner and the horse promptly took off for the nearest grasspatch, dragging its owner behind. At the end of 30 mins, she was handling the horse properly, but you had to wonder how long she would retain what she had been taught.

He dealt well with the undersaddle problems, but firmly informed the lady who had ridden twice in five years that she could not expect her horse to behave like a trained horse with so little exercise and direction.

Since Mr. Rashid comes from a general western/trail/pleasure horse/working stock horse point of view, it was interesting that the person he probably helped the most was a beginner hunt seat rider with a spooky horse. He got her to the point where the horse stayed on the aids (oncontact, not on the bid) and obeyed her, eeven when a freight train went by the arena, not even 100 feet away! That WAS impressive.

I was just disappointed simply from the point of view that these people had problems that even an intermediate rider with some proper instruction would never have had. They were all looking for some "magic wand" or "method" that would cure their horses' misbehaviors that they themselves had created through lack of knowledge and proper instruction. Most of the casual amateur riders I know could have "fixed" these horses. To me it seems a waste of Mr. Rashid's expertise, but he was polite and helpful, to the extent he could be, with all of them. Still, as Mr. Rashid says, you can't help someone if they don't want to be helped, and at least these people DID want to be helped.

The one other clinic participant he really helped was a pleasure rider who was concerned about her saddle fit (which was fine), and about some of her horse's under saddle behavior. He adjusted her position and basic use of the aids, and in 30 minutes the horse was doing quiet, precise stops, turns and rollbacks. The owner was delighted and I think SHE really took something away from the clinic that helped her.

[Dandy's Mom]

As stated above, Parelli methods have helped me A LOT. I also agree, I don't have any desire - nor will I ever ask my horse to canter into a trailer. Parelli doesn't expect that either, he just likes to show off. I don't like the 'show off' aspects - nor do I agree with the bad safety role-modeling (lack of helmets etc).

That being said - the basics he teaches teach a lot. For those who do not know the Parelli program and react to the hearsay - read the article in "The Horse"
www.thehorse.com/news.asp?fid=3449 (http://www.thehorse.com/news.asp?fid=3449)

[FlightCheck]

I have attended a few "NH" clinics in my area with Harry Whitney (a client sponsors the clinics and wanted my input).

As Sandy wrote, most of the 25 persons at the clinic had bought a horse without haveing ANY instruction...several of them had purchased yearlings, etc... /infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Mr. Whitney was very common sense oriented (for example, when a horse was running after his owner and trying to bite her while leading, he took the lead rope, allowed the horse to try it with him, and then chased the horse backwards with a plastic grocery bag...very effective. He then taught the owner how to discipline her horse, giving the "respect" speech.


He was Very Gracious to me; at the time I had never "round penned" a horse, and so brought my event horse - a QH gelding (who did longe and free longe). AFter about 10 minutes of watching me w/t/c/reverse etc...he s