Lion King gelded [Archive] - Chronicle Forums

QHEventr

Dec. 9, 2003, 02:59 PM

So I may be a bit out of the loop, but when did this happen? Rumor had it he has been gelded and sent from Bruce to a junior jumper. I am sooo happy with my 4 yr old Lion baby and was really hoping to collect a few more! I just hope they have their eyes on another to take his place in The Lion line. It has proven to be such an amazing line in eventing (with bruce at least).

Johanna

"When you're galloping at the biggest cross-country jump in the world.....you can't hold back"

QHEventr

Dec. 9, 2003, 02:59 PM

MsRidiculous

Dec. 9, 2003, 05:02 PM

It's not a rumor, it's fact. The new owner posts on these boards, actually. He is going to be a junior hunter, though, not a junior jumper.

You aren't that far out of the loop.. it only happened a few weeks ago. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

-Amanda

www.risingstarfarm.net (http://www.risingstarfarm.net)

Fair Knightess

Dec. 9, 2003, 05:17 PM

How old would he be now? 8 or 9?

Was he just not stallion material? They did breed him very young IIRC - he was breeding at 2.

if at first you don't succeed, pick yourself up and try again ...

QHEventr

Dec. 9, 2003, 05:45 PM

I think he started breeding at 2 or 3 and I believe his oldest are 5 now...

How sad...his babies are doing quite well for them selves for as young as they are

Johanna

"When you're galloping at the biggest cross-country jump in the world.....you can't hold back"

MsRidiculous

Dec. 9, 2003, 06:50 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by QHEventr:
I think he started breeding at 2 or 3 and I believe his oldest are 5 now...

How sad...his babies are doing quite well for them selves for as young as they are

Johanna

"When you're galloping at the biggest cross-country jump in the world.....you can't hold back" <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yeah, I agree. No one really seems to know why he was sold, either, at this point.

-Amanda

www.risingstarfarm.net (http://www.risingstarfarm.net)

AppJumpr08

Dec. 9, 2003, 07:56 PM

Almost every horse at Chesterland is for sale, for the right price.
I don't know the details-perhaps something to do with him breaking down a few years ago? Perhaps Bruce didn't think he would stay sound on XC...or didn't want to deal with his bucks anymore...he was always very light on his feet http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif
He does have some nice babies out there though - I'm sure there was a very good reason, as breeding his own babies is so close to Bruce's heart.

~Jessica
Personal slave to Newt, Image, and Dina!

LisaB

Dec. 10, 2003, 04:21 AM

I saw the stallion at the vet box at a * and he just didn't seem like he would ever be a *** eventer to me. I actually thought he would make a lovely hunter. I guess that's what Bruce thought too.

QHEventr

Dec. 10, 2003, 04:31 AM

I agree that he would make a lovely hunter, but I'm still dissapointed. I know Bruce has done some HITS with him in the past. I have also been told that he was known for returning from hacks without the girl that took him. The line does have a bit of attitude in it. Mine still thinks that would be fun to do sometimes.

Johanna

"When you're galloping at the biggest cross-country jump in the world.....you can't hold back"

JER

Dec. 10, 2003, 07:09 AM

Having never seen the horse, I'm speaking in the hypothetical.

The vast majority of good eventing sires have never evented or, in some cases, even jumped a fence. These would be racing TB stallions whose progeny turned out to have jumping ability -- Edmund Burke, Primitive Rising, Ben Faerie, Loyal Pal, etc. A good proportion of these stallions -- for a variety of reasons - probaby would not have made the *** level. And this was no reason not to breed them.

If Lion King is the last of the Stream Lion line, and the only stallion, you'd think he'd be worth keeping intact -- especially to breed to TB mares if he's a RIDx. I did hear of some very nice mares breeding to him, and from what Johanna says, his offspring seem to be quality horses.

While it's great that LK found a good home as a hunter, this is all a little sad, especially with the scarcity of good eventing stallions in the US.

QHEventr

Dec. 10, 2003, 07:27 AM

My thoughts exactly JER!

Oh well, what can ya do?

Johanna

"When you're galloping at the biggest cross-country jump in the world.....you can't hold back"

Giddyup2

Dec. 10, 2003, 07:53 AM

Wasn't there an article in Practical Horsemen about an event rider...in Colorado....(?)... who had a "Lion" filly? I think the filly's name was Dandy Lion but she nicnamed her Teacup.....?

QHEventr

Dec. 10, 2003, 08:42 AM

Yep...But I think its "teaspoon". I'm probably way off though. She was (I'm not sure this is correct) Novice Champion for the area.

Johanna

"When you're galloping at the biggest cross-country jump in the world.....you can't hold back"

AppJumpr08

Dec. 10, 2003, 08:56 AM

He was AWFUL on trot sets...I personally saw him gallop past me on the way back to the barn one morning...he dumped his rider about halfway out on a 30 minute trot...he had a LONG way to walk home!! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif
He never 'grew up' as much as Bruce was hoping...looked very promising as a young horse, and never outgrew the pony stage.
Should be a great hunter though (I can totally understand why the gelded him if he is to be a hunter, though....WAY too studdish to be trusted!)

~Jessica
Personal slave to Newt, Image, and Dina!

Albion

Dec. 10, 2003, 09:29 AM

If he went to be a junior hunter, it doesn't matter how fabulous he was a stallion, behavior-wise (hypothetically) - he HAD to be gelded.

'O lente, lente currite noctis equi' - Ovid

JER

Dec. 10, 2003, 10:06 AM

Here's what I've learned about LK on this thread: (1) even Bruce Davidson may have found his bucking tiresome, (2) he's mentally immature and likes to goof off and (3) he likes to dump his rider and run home.

While I'm no hunter rider or expert, LK doesn't sound much like a junior hunter prospect to me. His bad habits seem to extend a bit further than merely 'playing in the corners.'

But I'm sure everyone involved does know what they're doing and I'd welcome the sight of an Irish-bred in the hunter ring these days.

QueenMother

Dec. 10, 2003, 10:17 AM

What is a "trot set"?

Janet

Dec. 10, 2003, 10:28 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by QueenMother:
What is a "trot set"?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Interval training.

Janet
chief feeder and mucker for Music, Spy, Belle, and Brain

GirlNextDoor

Dec. 10, 2003, 11:09 AM

As you all may or may not know, Lion King is my new horse. I am really disappointed in the way some of you have made assumptions about him

Lion is a wonderful horse. He was a good event horse. He actually won a few Prelim or Open events I believe. He was a good stallion. He has had some awesome babies. That is all you guys should (correctly) assume.

Lion is the absolute opposite of how you all portray him. He doesn't buck, he doesn't play in the corners, he DEFINATELY does not have a studdish attitude (and to my knoweledge, he never did). He also, to me and my trainer's at least, does not seem insanely immature. He is a very smart horse and very eager to learn.

That being said, I have some problems with a few of you making assumptions about him not being "not sounding much like a junior hunter prospect". Some of you (I am guessing most you actually, if not all) have never seen Lion go. Therefore, it is just plain stupid to say these things. JER, you even admit that you don't really no what you are talking about. This is the part that confuses me. I don't really understand why, if you have no idea about my horse (except for, of course, the very reputable people on COTH which many of you have never even met...) you feel the need to pass judgement on him. It just doesn't make sense to me.

I am guessing that I am not the only one offended by all of these statements. I am sure Bruce Davidson wouldn't be thrilled to hear all of this either. I really wish you all would maybe start acting like adults and stop being so quick to judge.

As soon as I have my first show with Lion King, I will update you all. As for the meantime, Lion is doing great. His surgery went very well and he is going back to work. He has started doing smaller courses again and he has been jumping amazingly. He is as sweet as an angel and a definate barn favorite!

Thank you all for hopefully listening to what I have to say. Sorry if there are some typing or grammatical mistakes, I am just a little upset right now with all of this.

"You've been hoodwinked. You've been had.
You've been took. You've been led astray, led amok.
You've been Bamboozled."

-- Malcolm X

barbaraG

Dec. 10, 2003, 11:20 AM

Good luck with your new horse!! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif

If you ever come to Area I with him, I will probably see you!

Cheers and Happy Holidays!
BarbaraG
Great Warrior Volunteer

Velvet

Dec. 10, 2003, 11:25 AM

Hey, I gelded my guy and he already acted like a gelding nearly all the time. He also has babies on the ground. But having a gelding just makes life SO much easier. Boarding is simple. Not worrying about him some day having too much testosterone during a show is not a problem anymore. Never worrying that he misinterprets any correction you give him (stallions get in trouble accidentally, because of hormones once in while and don't know why you're upset with them) is another win. And the biggest one is not having to bother with standing them and having to keep them out of heavy training or showing to do it (and not dealing with mare owners).

Geldings are just plain easier to own! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

I can only conclude that I'm paying off karma at a vastly accelerated rate.

mcmIV

Dec. 10, 2003, 11:28 AM

GirlNextDoor....

This entire thread has been mostly about how GREAT he was as a sire.. and how sad we are to see him go as a good producer of eventing babies. You should take a deep breath.

JER: But I'm sure everyone involved does know what they're doing and I'd welcome the sight of an Irish-bred in the hunter ring these days.

APPjumpr: Should be a great hunter though (I can totally understand why the gelded him if he is to be a hunter...

LisaB: I actually thought he would make a lovely hunter. I guess that's what Bruce thought too.

Just some snippets of the universal goodwill towards your new horse.

Good luck with him...

martha

make something idiot-proof and they will just make better idiots.
Proud member of the * Hoof Fetish & the NervousNellieWorryWart* cliques!

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lms

Dec. 10, 2003, 11:29 AM

You all should be ashammed of yourselves. You're posts were just downright rude especially after someone posted that his new owner is a COTH BB poster.

According to what I've heard, Lion King IS the most adorable thing in the world. It moves great and jumps great and will be a serious force to be reckoned with in the small juniors.

Some apologies would be nice...starting now!

GND good luck with LK this coming year!

"Some people need to buy the winners, others make them."

GirlNextDoor

Dec. 10, 2003, 11:29 AM

In Lion King's case he had to be gelded. Because I am a junior, I am not allowed to show a stallion in the hunters by USAEq rules. Really, if we had the choice, he would probably still be a stallion. His personality has not changed one bit because he was so sweet and easy going to being with.

Edited because I just read lms's post. Thank you very much http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif I hope we have some fun in small juniors this year!!

"You've been hoodwinked. You've been had.
You've been took. You've been led astray, led amok.
You've been Bamboozled."

-- Malcolm X

LisaB

Dec. 10, 2003, 11:39 AM

Go kick some hunter butt Girl Next Door!
I'm kinda interested to hear your stories on his conversion process. Did you have to do some re-training? Was he ever in a class and there was a cross country jump within a mile and he grew 10 ft?

GirlNextDoor

Dec. 10, 2003, 11:44 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Mary in Area 1:
I'm sorry if this sounds harsh, but I am REALLY amazed by what you just wrote. If the ONLY reason you gelded that horse was so you could show in the junior hunters, that is the most immature, self-serving thing I've heard in quite a while.

If the horse NEEDED to be gelded because of health or temperment, or because he did not make a good sire, that is one thing. But if he WAS a good stallion, and if what you say is true about his temperment, couldn't you have found a gelding to show, rather than geld a good stallion?

I will never understand the hunters.

"I refuse to engage in a battle of wits with someone who is unarmed."--Pogo<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

First of all, I have been looking for a new horse for awhile. We found out that Lion was for sale and we jumped at the opporunity to own such an amazing horse. I was not looking for a jumper. I was looking for a hunter. If his past owners wanted Lion to be a stallion forever, they would NOT sell him to a junior. They knew that he would have to be gelded and they were AOK with it.

If you found a horse that was perfect for you but he was a stallion and becuase of rules you were not allowed to show said stallion, would you pass him up? Lion is just one horse. There are plenty of other stallions in the world.

I really don't believe I was being selfish. I bought the horse to show him. I did not buy him to pet him for two years until I aged out.

I'm not sure whose business this really is anyways. I'm sorry some of your are so personally offended by the gelding of my horse. I am starting to find this all a tad odd now.

"You've been hoodwinked. You've been had.
You've been took. You've been led astray, led amok.
You've been Bamboozled."

-- Malcolm X

Albion

Dec. 10, 2003, 11:56 AM

GirlNextDoor, I think some people just think it's a shame because he HAS produced some very nice eventing babies, and there aren't masses of stallions specifically marketed towards producing event horses. Frankly, Mary in Area 1's comments are out of line, IMHO. LK is certainly not the first NICE stallion to be gelded to become a nice junior hunter.

From an earlier post on this board:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR> While it's great that LK found a good home as a hunter, this is all a little sad, especially with the scarcity of good eventing stallions in the US. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Good luck with your new hunter!

'O lente, lente currite noctis equi' - Ovid

ThirdCharm

Dec. 10, 2003, 11:56 AM

C'mon guys. Lots of "nice" stallions are gelded every year because the owners don't want to bother with a stallion, don't have the resources to manage one, or realize that he might be a NICE stallion but he would make a GREAT gelding. It is not a crime against nature.

And is it just me or is the conformation photo on Lion King's stallion page incredibly unflattering? That sure didn't HELP his stud career....

JenniferS

lms

Dec. 10, 2003, 11:57 AM

Mary in Area 1-- Just who exactly do you think you are telling GND what she should do with HER horse. GND isn't going to change riding disciplines just so a horse can keep its balls!

It is GND's horse now, no one else's. Check your attitudes at the door folks!

"Some people need to buy the winners, others make them."

starboard

Dec. 10, 2003, 12:02 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Mary in Area 1:
If the ONLY reason you gelded that horse was so you could show in the junior hunters, that is the most immature, self-serving thing I've heard in quite a while.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yea, there arent enough 'good stallions' out there http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif
Quit picking on the girl. There are lots of horses who (gasp) get gelded even though they are phenomenal horses.
Girlnextdoor--good luck with your new horse--you must be VERY excited!

Obviously Bruce knew what the horse was going to do, if he felt strongly that the horse should remain a stallion, he would have kept it that way.

Barnfairy

Dec. 10, 2003, 12:04 PM

GirlNextDoor, I sent you a private topic.

Don't take everything you read online to heart, dear. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Jaaane, stop this crazy thing

MdLib

Dec. 10, 2003, 12:04 PM

I am sorry, GirlNextDoor, that folks have to rave on like this. You can't swing a dead cat around here, look at some of the wacky criticism on other threads. If I was in your shoes, I would be defensive, as well, but I'd hate for you to fall into the trap of defending yourself, you don't need to and it only feeds those trying to pick you apart.

You have a Super Nice Horse, and I'm sure will do well with him. Congratulations!

Velvet

Dec. 10, 2003, 12:06 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>I'm sorry if this sounds harsh, but I am REALLY amazed by what you just wrote. If the ONLY reason you gelded that horse was so you could show in the junior hunters, that is the most immature, self-serving thing I've heard in quite a while. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Wow! That's is just plain WRONG!!! No one has the right to tell any horse owner whether or not they can geld a stallion. GirlNextDoor is showing a LOT of maturity on this board and with her decisions. It is her horse. She is right in that she doesn't need to answer to anyone out here--and I find this just NASTY, not to mention ludicrous.

GND, you are right to get out of this discussion. It's now in the realm of trolls. Don't bother with it anymore and let it die--or ask the moderators to get rid of it. It's gone from the ridiculous to the sublime.

Just walk away and don't pay it any more attention if it can't be removed. None of the people out here venting their spleens deserve any more details or your time.

Remember, if you listen to dogs barking you'll go deaf without learning anything. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Go find another stallion for your mares. There are plenty of them out there. This one is now a gelding. Get over it.

I can only conclude that I'm paying off karma at a vastly accelerated rate.

Blinky

Dec. 10, 2003, 12:11 PM

Will you show him under the same name?

Janet

Dec. 10, 2003, 12:50 PM

Overall, there are too many horses being bred.

I would FAR RATHER see good horses (mare OR stallion) taken OUT of the breeding business than see not-so-good horses continue to be bred.

GND,

Congratulations and good luck, and don't let ANYONE lay a guilt trip on you for gelding him.

Janet
chief feeder and mucker for Music, Spy, Belle, and Brain

Robby Johnson

Dec. 10, 2003, 12:53 PM

GND - you bought a high profile horse from a high profile person. Try not to get your feelings hurt - no one is bashing your horse. You don't get something for nothing and this is the way it tends to work.

I believe AppJumper is a w/s for the Davidson's, so I think she is probably qualified to proffer firsthand experiences. Whether we believe her or not is totally up to us. I tend to think there are 2 sides to every story!

I also think Mary's statement had some value. I guess because I know her I "heard" differently that you all did.

Robby

So I'm a sistah, buy things with cash
It doesn't mean that all my credit's bad

http://community.webshots.com/user/rbjohnsonii

GirlNextDoor

Dec. 10, 2003, 12:55 PM

Hey App- check your PMs

"You've been hoodwinked. You've been had.
You've been took. You've been led astray, led amok.
You've been Bamboozled."

-- Malcolm X

JER

Dec. 10, 2003, 01:04 PM

GirlNextDoor, I thought I was writing in support of your horse! Very sorry if you were offended.

I do believe that BD and your trainer were acting in their best judgment when deciding on a new career plus a change of anatomy for Lion King. I don't know your trainer, but BD is extremely knowlegeable and he ADORES this line of horses. If I were to hazard a guess, I suspect that BD's bred himself some nice fillies by LK to use in his breeding program and therefore, no longer needs LK to be a stallion. This makes perfect sense to me.

However, it is highly unusual to read about a horse who is -- by others' accounts -- too fresh for eventing changing careers to become a show hunter. It's usually the opposite -- the hot and fresh hunter prospect switches over to eventing. I hope you and LK do well in hunters, and, like I said, I welcome the return of the Irish style horse to the US show ring. I'm a huge fan of that type.

When people comment on the 'loss' of a highly-touted eventing stallion, it's only due to a lack of good eventing stallions in this country. It's a compliment to your horse that people are saying he made a nice stallion.

And I'm saying all this without even knowing what your horse looks like. Do you have any photos to share?

Erin

Dec. 10, 2003, 01:04 PM

Mary in Area I, that post was totally out of line.

I'm sure there are plenty of people who are sad to hear that Lion King is no longer a stallion, and they're welcome to that opinion, as long as it's politely expressed. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

But there's absolutely no reason to insult the new owner. Please remember BB Rule #1: "Be nice, be polite, be respectful."

If the situation can be discussed nicely, politely, and respectfully, I'll leave the thread open.

GirlNextDoor

Dec. 10, 2003, 01:10 PM

Re-reading your post JER, I understand where you were coming from. These are LK's pictures: http://community.webshots.com/album/99251357tJnvXO

I think I am going to try and let this topic die sooo if you have anything else to say, please PM me

"You've been hoodwinked. You've been had.
You've been took. You've been led astray, led amok.
You've been Bamboozled."

-- Malcolm X

eventrider

Dec. 10, 2003, 01:48 PM

I think your new horse and you are adorable. LK looks like a perfect hunter to me from his pictures. How tall is he? I bet you will do great with himand let usknow when you show him!

I have ridden stallions for people and I have been part of their gelding before. In one instance the owner was an older woman and could no longer take care of a stallion on her private farm properly. Instead of trying to sell a stallion and worry about his future care and what would be done with him....for his safety and ease of finding the right home....we gelded him. I see nothing wrong with gelding a horse if that is what you choose to do.
Thirdcharm....I don't know what confo shot you are talking about but from his pics the new owner posted he seems fine to me. I personaaly wouldn't want to advertise a stallion I was touting as a jumper/event stallion as lame at an early age from arthritic changes! THAT can't help his stud career. Just my honest opinion though.

Best of luck GND with your super new horse!!!!!

Black Market Radio

Dec. 10, 2003, 02:11 PM

Oh my gosh! He has the cutest face! He looks like a big pony! Good luck and don't let the nay-sayers get to you!

Devilpups (http://community.webshots.com/user/angelgregory87)
"Oh bad Zoot, EVIL Zoot. There is but one punishment in the castle Anthrax for setting alight the grail-shaped beacon. You must tie her to the bed and Spank her. And after you are finished spanking her, spank me."

QHEventr

Dec. 10, 2003, 02:11 PM

GND -

I started this thread because not many people in the eventing world had heard that Lion King had been gelded. When you take such a high profile horse and something drastic happens dealing with that horse, people will talk about it...I have a WONDERFUL lion baby and was really hoping to pick up another one or two in tbe future. While some peoples comments have been way out of line, this thread began with nothing but nice things to say about your horse. I am a HUGE fan of the line and was just sad to see that he had been taken out of the breeding loop. I am hoping that you will re read this thread (minus the nasty comments) and realize that most of us think that...a) He is going to make a lovely hunter, and....b) it is a compliment to the horse if people are saddend to see him go as a stallion.

There are not very many stallions marketed for eventing and even fewer that have actually competed. He is part of a VERY well known line of event horses and everyone wants to see the line continue. He is also the last of Stream Lions babies. She has thrown amazing horses...(Eagle Lion, Pirate Lion, etc...)This is why everyone is sad to see him go. Noone is denying you the right to do as you please with your new horse and frankly I wish you the best of luck. But....please understand that IT IS A LOSS to the eventing community anyway you look at it. There are VERY knowledgable people on this board and many have had experience with Bruce or LK. I know that it is hard not to get deffensive, and I might do the same thing, but look at it from our point of view. He has been part of the eventing world longer than the hunter. He was also known to throw a bit of attitude (NOT A BAD ONE!!!!!).

I can testify to that. My 4 yr old (17.1) Lion baby has loads of attitude...but thats what makes him so amazing. Noone is bashing your horse, or you intentionally. Please believe this.

I chose not to Private topic you because I think everyone should hear this. We pride ourselves in being very nice people over here on the eventing board. Sorry if you got the wrong impression.

GOOD LUCK....KEEP US POSTED!

Johanna
and
Bodega "Border Lion" - who thinks his daddy is wonderful either way!

"When you're galloping at the biggest cross-country jump in the world.....you can't hold back"

goobs

Dec. 10, 2003, 02:21 PM

Well I think that's great! It's YOUR horse and you do what is best for you and him. It was NOT selfish to geld him. You will have many, many wonderful rounds in the show ring with LK! I really hope you keep us posted with pictures! Lucky you!! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

ThirdCharm

Dec. 10, 2003, 04:21 PM

eventrider--

I was referring to his conformation photo on the Lanefield farm website, which makes him look downhill and very straight behind. He looks a great deal better in GND's pix--so perhaps the photo on the Lanefield website was simply poorly chosen. (Though he does frankly look more like a Hunter than an Eventer!) Most stallion owners prefer to present a stallion in the best manner possible.

As for my stallion, it states clearly on my website that his arthritic changes are due to an accident in 1998 (perhaps you would prefer the gory details to be explicated in full--he was hit square-on by a Chevy Lumina at 45 miles an hour, after a kid with a BB gun shot him and ran him through a fence, and spent two months recovering. The fact that he returned to competition at ALL is amazing). Those are simply the facts, and it would be equally unhelpful to his stud career to just leave people wondering "if he's so great, why isn't he competing?" As we've seen from this thread!

JenniferS

NeverTime

Dec. 10, 2003, 04:29 PM

GND,
I'm sorry if comments here offended you. You purchased a high-profile horse, and whether it seems fair to you or not, people are going to talk about him. Get used to it now or get used to it later.
Bruce marketed him as a breeding stallion, meaning he put the horse up for the world to pick apart and critique on his merits and flaws. Despite the fact your horse has lost the equipment for that line of work now, I would imagine that until your success in the hunters overshadows his former life, people will talk about him and critique him they way they always talk about stallions.
It may be best to just grow a thick skin, and good luck with him. (And, yes, I've met the horse and some of his babies.)

AppJumpr08

Dec. 10, 2003, 05:43 PM

Thanks, Robby http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
Yup, I was a WS for the Davidsons, and will be again this winter.
GND, thanks for the PT http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif I'm sorry I came across the wrong way http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif

Good grief people, it seems like every topic started around here turns nasty! It's really not anyone's business if a high-profile stallion is gelded or not other then to know why (ie, lameness, attitude issues, etc - it's NOT grounds for personal attacks on the owner of the stallion) (QHEventer, this is not pointing a finger at you, I know you were just getting the fact out therehttp://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif)

The fact is, Lion King will probably advance farther in the Hunter ring then in the Event field (I doubt he would've made the move to Advanced). Yes it's a shame that eventing has lost a stallion, but he's got a bunch of babies out there, so it's not like the line is dying. I love Lion and I've loved all the babies I've met - I'm going to assume Bruce has some of his semen frozen somewhere, so there may be a few more mini-Lions at somepoint, and if not, you'll just have to settle for a grandchild instead http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

I think everyone needs to take their pre-holiday stress out on punching bags or something instead of on people on the board. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

*edited to clarify my point after reading JER's posthttp://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif*

~Jessica
Personal slave to Newt, Image, and Dina!

[This message was edited by AppJumpr08 on Dec. 10, 2003 at 10:07 PM.]

JER

Dec. 10, 2003, 06:54 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>It's really not anyone's business if a high-profile stallion is gelded or not <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

It most certainly is if you're a sporthorse breeder!

Lion King was marketed as an eventing stallion, promoted for his bloodlines and the successes of his close relatives, touted by respectable people as a good breeding choice for your program. And then he's gelded.

If any of the marketing materials reached its audience, there are going to be inquiries as to why LK can no longer offer his services. And those who bred to LK or bought his youngstock have a responsibility to find out why this happened -- what if it was something health- or soundness-related?

I realize, Jessica, that you're really just being friendly and a good sport, but I also want to make the point that the status of LK's testicles is of legitimate interest to the eventing and sporthorse communities.

AppJumpr08

Dec. 10, 2003, 07:04 PM

JER, I agree that that a high-profile stallion being gelded is something to take note of, I just disagree with people that criticize and accuse with no reason other then that they are cranky.
I too am dissapointed to learn that there will not be any more little Lions, but "thems the breaks", and it's not worth getting bent out of shape over. At least there was warning, and time to collect and freeze semen (I don't know if it was done or not, but I would assume so).
Through the marvels of modern technology, I would guess that there will be one or two more little LKs running around at somepoint!

I realize I worded my previous post in an odd way, and will edit it now to better reflect my meaning. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

~Jessica
Personal slave to Newt, Image, and Dina!

Velvet

Dec. 11, 2003, 07:50 AM

It is still none of your business as to WHY the stallion was gelded. GND didn't even have to bother to tell you. She should have let you speculate and vented to your hearts' content out here and never bothered to reply. I wouldn't have replied. It's nobodys business. She's the owner, she can do what she wants. If you're so worked up over a stallion as a "sport horse breeder" and want the stallion to stay one, then put your money where your mouth is and buy it when it comes up for sale. Otherwise, just get over yourselves already. This is a ridiculous topic. Stallions come and go for various reasons EVERY DAY.

And here I've always enjoyed eventers because they are usually more laid back about anything other than riding a cross country course. This is absurd. I evented when I was younger and rode at a breeding farm. No one ever got this worked up about what happened to a stallion--even when it was one that was sold off the farm. Maybe they were disappointed, but they kept that to themselves. No one ran around gossiping about it and bad mouthing the owner. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

This really is NO ONES business out here. If you want to let people know that he is no longer a standing stallion, that's one thing. And most people out here are behaving themselves. The few that are up in arms need to have a reality check. Your opinions do not count, nor matter when it comes to someone else owning and managing a horse (especially when there is no abuse involved). What's done is done; end of story.

(I heard the sport horse breeding board was the most evil one out here. Is this just a group wandering over from there? I can only hope that's what is going on.)

I can only conclude that I'm paying off karma at a vastly accelerated rate.

pwynnnorman

Dec. 11, 2003, 08:12 AM

GirlNextDoor, don't be upset. People speculate about "celebrities" all the time--and your guy qualifies, you know! It's just human nature--not meant to insult or demean. I suppose one could say it is the "cost" of being a celebrity (or being associated with one). Setting the record right you can do, but stopping the speculation--never.

Sportponies Unlimited
Specializing in fancy, athletic, 3/4-TB ponies.
http://www.sportponiesunlimited.com
http://www.sportponiesunlimited.com/Sportponies_Unlimited_stallions.html

Velvet

Dec. 11, 2003, 08:33 AM

Yeah, she has to get used to people "beating dead testicles." http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

I can only conclude that I'm paying off karma at a vastly accelerated rate.

subk

Dec. 11, 2003, 09:06 AM

I went back and re-read the beginning of this thread and what I can't figure out is why did GND come bursting out of the gate with her panties in a twist. THAT is where this thread started its unfortunate tone.

Eye witness, first hand accounts and discussion of those accounts of a horse's behavior is not out of line. Maybe GND doesn't understand eventers well enough to realize that nobody finds rambunctious behavior a condemnation of a horse around here.

Velvet I have to respectably disagree with you. The discussion of the why and what-fors on the loss of a VERY high profile event stallion is perfectly appropriate for an eventing board.

In GND defense: Any of you who are unhappy about the turn of events should be spewing your nastiness at the seller--a professional adult--not a child. Mary you should type slower and let your brain catch up. Stop getting the hunters all riled up and making the rest of us eventers look bad. It's getting old.

tle

Dec. 11, 2003, 09:29 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>It is still none of your business as to WHY the stallion was gelded.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hmmm... stepping into the breeding arena this coming year (I hope), i would have to disagree. STallions are promoted all the time for a variety of qualities that I, for example, am looking for as well as the ability TO PASS THOSE QUALITIES ON. If LK were gelded, for example, due to temperment or soundness issues, you can damn well bet I'd be interested in knowing that if I were looking at breeding to him or to any of his babies! The propensity to pass on desirable and undesirable characteristics is at the heart of breeding. Why wouldn't the issue of gelding a former breeding stallion at least be inquiry worthy (not to mention a very legitimate question)?

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>If you found a horse that was perfect for you but he was a stallion and becuase of rules you were not allowed to show said stallion, would you pass him up? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yep, I would. I'd be heartbroken, but I would because as you said, he's only 1 horse... there are others out there.

Can I ask a relatively innocent question -- will you keep competing him after you age out?

All in all, I'm happy you found a horse that fits you. But as others have said/alluded to, I'm sad a good event stallion is gone and I'm not sure I would do the same in your position -- but I'm not *in* your position. Good luck with him.

************
If Dressage is a Symphony... Eventing is Rock & Roll!!!

"All's well that ends with cute E.R. doctors, I always say." -- Buffy

Velvet

Dec. 11, 2003, 09:38 AM

But you would have known about those issues (temperament, etc.) BEFORE the horse was sold in this case (because he was being shown and had been standing for a while). So in this case, I'll still beg to differ.

As far as buying a stallion and gelding him? If the horse has a stallion price tag on him I'd probably be looking for a gelding first. But if the horse was the one I really wanted and was a super sweet stallion--and I didn't want to stand him or deal with a stallion--I'd cut him in a heart beat. A sweet stallion makes an amazingly wonderful gelding and life is easier for both owner and horse after they're gelded.

I still don't see the problem. I think it's always a difficult decision for the owner when they geld a stallion, but with all the garbage stallions out there AND all the good ones, I think there are plenty for everyone to chose from and one missing isn't going to amount to a hill of beans.

If you have babies that you like, keep them and pass on the genes. Don't cut YOUR stud colts.

I can only conclude that I'm paying off karma at a vastly accelerated rate.

pwynnnorman

Dec. 11, 2003, 09:41 AM

tle has the definitive answer as to why it IS justified to discuss this.

If you own one of his babies, wouldn't YOU want to know? If you "invested" in him by breeding to him, you'd need to keep track of him and his get and his future if only to handle your investment effectively.

Don't some of you think that his gelding might have hurt the value of his babies--then again, the rarity factor could increase that value, but I don't think that's what happens in this particular world, do you? Alas, people do tend to think that there's something wRONG with a horse if he changes careers and, worse still, has to be gelded! Egad, they think, what have I done! What do I tell people now when they inquire about buying this baby I have!

Well, thanks to this thread, they now have a lot to say--and with more of a chance of being accurate than if this thread had never happened.

Sportponies Unlimited
Specializing in fancy, athletic, 3/4-TB ponies.
http://www.sportponiesunlimited.com
http://www.sportponiesunlimited.com/Sportponies_Unlimited_stallions.html

QHEventr

Dec. 11, 2003, 09:54 AM

No one asked GND to explain anything. He is a high profile horse and people will wonder. Nothing negative was said at all until she chose to chose to explain herself. Unfortunatly, some poeple have decided to be less than positive, but thats how it goes. We were just all interested in what happened to Lion King. I have taken a personal interest because I have a Lion King baby.
I hate that some people have started to think that us eventers are rude...in gerneral, we are far from it.

Joannna

"If I had to pick one thing to hang my hat on, I would want the horse that I was going to buy to have a face that I would enjoy seeing poked over the stall webbing every morning, waiting for breakfast"
- Jimmy Wofford on selecting a horse

"Event parties are all about adrenaline release, beer, loud music, and unacceptable behavior. Dancing on the table is strictly OK, as is climbing up the tent pole."
- Denny Emerson

Janet

Dec. 11, 2003, 09:55 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Velvet said:
If you're so worked up over a stallion as a "sport horse breeder" and want the stallion to stay one, then put your money where your mouth is and buy it when it comes up for sale. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I assume it was known that LK was for sale (as AppJumper said, "everything" on the farm is for sale). If a breeder had offered the same money for him as a stallion, I expect that is what he would be. Or if he was generating a significant annual income through stud fees. For whatever reasons, it seems that LK is worth more as a gelded Jr Hunter prospect than as an eventing sire. That is what happens in a "free market economy".

And as someone else said, it is OK to be disappointed, but don't go laying a guilt trip on the BUYER. If you are going to lay "blame", the primary responsibility here shoould go to the sellers.

Janet
chief feeder and mucker for Music, Spy, Belle, and Brain

QHEventr

Dec. 11, 2003, 10:10 AM

There are only a few people laying blame on anyone....Most of us are just inquiring and discussing.

[quote] If you have babies that you like, keep them and pass on the genes. Don't cut YOUR stud colts. [quote]

I have a LK baby and, believe me, would have kept him intact if he hadn't been gelded when I got him. Unfortunatly, most of the babies are homebred (at chesterland?) so many people do not get the option.

Johanna

"If I had to pick one thing to hang my hat on, I would want the horse that I was going to buy to have a face that I would enjoy seeing poked over the stall webbing every morning, waiting for breakfast"
- Jimmy Wofford on selecting a horse

"Event parties are all about adrenaline release, beer, loud music, and unacceptable behavior. Dancing on the table is strictly OK, as is climbing up the tent pole."
- Denny Emerson

weezie

Dec. 11, 2003, 10:29 AM

Doesn't this thread belong in Sport Horse Breeding - then we wouldn't have to look at it anymore.

tle

Dec. 11, 2003, 10:36 AM

sorry, weezie, but some of us ENJOY looking at it. It is about a prominent eventing sire after all. if you dont', don't open it. sheesh. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Velvet, we'll just have to agree to disagree. I don't see a problem with the inquiry at all. Perhaps if an inquiry were done more often, more publicly and sooner about problems with Impressive babies, the HYPP situation would have been handled differently. It's all speculation and probably not a very good example, but i think the unlying thoughts are very valid. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

************
If Dressage is a Symphony... Eventing is Rock & Roll!!!

"All's well that ends with cute E.R. doctors, I always say." -- Buffy

Pol

Dec. 11, 2003, 10:42 AM

weeeeezie, I'm with you. let's put it to BED!!

Badger

Dec. 11, 2003, 10:45 AM

Here is the Lanefield ad with the picture that was referenced earlier in the thread. I must say, it is not the most flattering shot I've seen in a stallion ad:

http://www.lanefieldfarm.com/lionking.htm

I think Janet's point that he must have been worth more as a junior hunter prospect than an eventing competitor and stud is excellent. I would love to know the economics of it all: how many mares an eventing stallion needs to cover at $2,000 a pop in order for his to keep entact.

It seems to me that LK ending up a jr hunter gelding had more to do with the seller's decision than the buyer's, and it may have been strictly economic or it may not. The seller would know that, the rest is just speculating.

On the buyer's side of the decision, think of the old adage that is discussed whenever there is a "should I geld" thread. That you would much rather have an exception gelding than a mediocre stallion. Food for thought.

Giddyup2

Dec. 11, 2003, 11:15 AM

I'm not going to take any sides here but....I was not offended by Mary's comment. I too thought what GND stated was a bit odd.

cweimer

Dec. 11, 2003, 11:38 AM

Staying out of the whole should they have or shouldn't they have debate, but . . . .

Does anyone besides me think it's interesting - and hopeful - that an eventer is going on to a second career in the hunter ring, vs. the usual other way around? Could this potentially signal an increase in value for event horses, if there is a more widespread interest in the types of horses that we tend to see?

Just a thought, haven't really taken it much further than that. Frankly, if Lion King is successful in the hunter ring (and, I truly wish the owner great success), it could shed some very favorable light on "eventer breeding", JMO.

Kaoh14

Dec. 11, 2003, 12:40 PM

I know of a standardbred sire named Lion King, and i thought this was about him at first, and i was wondering why in the event board??

Anyways, good luck with your new horse! If you dont mind me asking, what did he have surgery for?

--------
Kaoh14
-- go big or go home --

http://community.webshots.com/user/kaoh14

ThirdCharm

Dec. 11, 2003, 12:42 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Kaoh14:

Anyways, good luck with your new horse! If you dont mind me asking, what did he have surgery for?

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Just a guess but probably referring to the gelding upon being sold.

JenniferS

Albion

Dec. 11, 2003, 01:53 PM

cweimer, I'm pretty sure a poster on the H/J board purchased a former event horse for a new career in the big eqs. Not positive - but I think I recall reading that somewhere over in H/J land. I think he was down in FL during the circuit to be sold?

'O lente, lente currite noctis equi' - Ovid

caballo_saltando

Dec. 11, 2003, 02:51 PM

Oh I am soooo holding my tongue here, trying to be a good person!!!!

I will say three things:

1) The pix that GND posted would be cute to me if they were not THAT horse. Looking at them just makes me sad and makes me feel sick.

2) People should direct their anger toward the seller (as someone else here has already said) and not the buyer - I'm sure the buyer paid one a$$load for him and she is entitled to do whatever the hell she wants with him.

3) If the lineage was so valuable, why in god's name did another breeder in the eventing or Steeplechasing world step up to the plate and buy him?

Ayy, this really just is so gd sad.

QHEventr

Dec. 11, 2003, 03:07 PM

Caballo-

To tell you the truth, I don't think he was actively marketed in the eventing world. He is a young horse and has not yet proven himself completely as a sire or an event horse. He is a very good sire and event horse, but not yet 100% proven. He is however from and amazing line of event horses and the last foal out of Stream Lion, a wonderful event/jump dam.

No one is denying that she has the right to do whatever she wants with her new horse. Noone should be placing blame and hardly anyone is, but he is high profile and it will start up some ocnversation when something like cutting a horse from a prominant line happens.

Johanna

"If I had to pick one thing to hang my hat on, I would want the horse that I was going to buy to have a face that I would enjoy seeing poked over the stall webbing every morning, waiting for breakfast"
- Jimmy Wofford on selecting a horse

"Event parties are all about adrenaline release, beer, loud music, and unacceptable behavior. Dancing on the table is strictly OK, as is climbing up the tent pole."
- Denny Emerson

JER

Dec. 11, 2003, 03:17 PM

badger, thanks for posting the ad. Interesting reading, especially given the way it's turned out.

Lion King is very cute (particularly in GND's pictures) but "$2000 to approved mares"? I understand the need for quality control but at that stud fee, I'd be surprised you'd be turning anyone away. $2000 is at the very high end of eventing stud fees and this is for an unproven stallion. Perhaps this stud venture was more than the current event breeding market could bear.

subk

Dec. 11, 2003, 04:12 PM

I have to believe that if Lion King goes on to have a successful hunter career in the top ranks in addition to his past success in eventing that it would only increase the market/desirability for his existing offspring and of horses of the same line. The result of that would undoubtedly be an increase in value for those horses.

The horse has also obviously been sold into a situation that will and can provide all the resources needed for success in the hunter world. It is quite possible that Mr. Davidson has made a brilliant move for both himself, the horse and the owners of any horses in that genetic line.

Personally I have no idea if it was a brilliant move or not. I don't think any of us have enough information. But talking about the possibilities is sure interesting.

Velvet--Let's say you were going to invest in a young unproven horse. If that horse's sire (any sire NOT this horse under discussion) became unsound before the age of 10 to perform the job you hope for your prospect to perform for reasons of conformation or genetic issues would that factor into your purchase decisions? It sure would be a factor for me! It might not be a deal breaker but it is information I think is reasonable to know.

risingstarfarm

Dec. 11, 2003, 04:17 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>I assume it was known that LK was for sale <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Did anyone actually know that Lion King was for sale?

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>If the lineage was so valuable, why in god's name did another breeder in the eventing or Steeplechasing world step up to the plate and buy him? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I read on another BB that GND's trainer and BD are friends and that she knew that he was going to be sold before anyone else.

Ronda
www.risingstarfarm.net (http://www.risingstarfarm.net)

Lisa Cook

Dec. 12, 2003, 04:28 AM

As a sideline to the comments about event horses going on to be successful hunters...

Julie Gomena's horse that she won Rolex with...heck, I just can't remember his name! He went on to be a very successful junior hunter at the top shows (Devon, etc).

Anyway, it has been done. I hope Lion King is very successful in his new career.

3dazey

Dec. 12, 2003, 04:37 AM

Julie Gomena's horse was Treaty.

Lisa Cook

Dec. 12, 2003, 04:42 AM

Bingo! Thanks so much! That would have driven me crazy all day.

Kaoh14

Dec. 12, 2003, 07:38 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by ThirdCharm:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Kaoh14:

Anyways, good luck with your new horse! If you dont mind me asking, what did he have surgery for?

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Just a guess but probably referring to the gelding upon being sold.

JenniferS<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sorry, blonde moment, lol...

--------
Kaoh14
-- go big or go home --

http://community.webshots.com/user/kaoh14

Nikki^

Dec. 13, 2003, 08:06 PM

I am also sadden. I still remember the article written about "Teaspoon"(LK's daughter) in PH. He's a beautiful horse with excellent bloodlines. At least he has babies on the ground to continue his legacy.

Kioko (http://www.geocities.com/area51/crater/5267/HeartofGold.html)

Look up your TB's bloodlines (http://www.dmtc.com/dmtc98/Pedigree/)

DarkerHorse

Dec. 13, 2003, 09:45 PM

DarkerHorse

Dec. 13, 2003, 10:52 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by tle:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>It is still none of your business as to WHY the stallion was gelded.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hmmm... stepping into the breeding arena this coming year (I hope), i would have to disagree. STallions are promoted all the time for a variety of qualities that I, for example, am looking for as well as the ability TO PASS THOSE QUALITIES ON. If LK were gelded, for example, due to temperment or soundness issues, you can damn well bet I'd be interested in knowing that if I were looking at breeding to him or to any of his babies! The propensity to pass on desirable and undesirable characteristics is at the heart of breeding. Why wouldn't the issue of gelding a former breeding stallion at least be inquiry worthy (not to mention a very legitimate question)?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

It isn't your horse. It is NOT your buisness.

If you had cervical cancer and had to get your ovaries removed is it your fifth cousin's child care provider's buisness?

I think not.

It's all over now baby blue..

DarkerHorse

Dec. 13, 2003, 11:01 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Mary in Area 1:
I was thinking about apologizing until I read "Girl Next Door's" personal profile. Lovely attitude.

This is an eventing section. Lion King WAS an event horse and a well-publicized event sire. I breed event horses. I think this is a great loss. Why is my opinion not valid?

As GND wrote: "In Lion King's case he had to be gelded. Because I am a junior, I am not allowed to show a stallion in the hunters by USAEq rules. Really, if we had the choice, he would probably still be a stallion."

As I said, I don't understand the mentality behind the hunters. A junior rider can ride a stallion in any other discipline as far as I am aware. It is a matter of judgment. Is the stallion well-behaved? Is the junior a good enough rider to control him? I'm not kicking the kid or the horse, just the decision to geld a horse just to "do the junior hunters." It makes no sense to me. There WAS a choice. Event. Do the jumpers. Or buy a gelding.

"I refuse to engage in a battle of wits with someone who is unarmed."--Pogo<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

She bought the horse because she liked it and paid the money..

Bottom line.

She gelded it because that is the rules.

Bottom line.

If we all did what we 'should' do because it is good for the 'population' we would be communist.

It's all over now baby blue..

[This message was edited by Darker Horse on Dec. 14, 2003 at 02:23 AM.]

DarkerHorse

Dec. 13, 2003, 11:14 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Giddyup2:
I'm not going to take any sides here but....I was _not_ offended by Mary's comment. I too thought what GND stated was a bit odd.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Um. No. It isn't. She tried the horse, she liked the horse, she bought the horse.

Her trainer and the seller thought the horse was the right horse for her. She was looking for a small junior hunter, and this horse fit the bill.

As per AHSA rules juniors cannot ride stallions. So she gelded him. That happens a lot acatually when people import horse (or it seems like there are more stallions that people import and geld anyway).

It's all over now baby blue..

DarkerHorse

Dec. 13, 2003, 11:14 PM

DarkerHorse

Dec. 13, 2003, 11:17 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Giddyup2:
I'm not going to take any sides here but....I was _not_ offended by Mary's comment. I too thought what GND stated was a bit odd.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don't think it is weird at all, except she HAD to geld the horse. She followed the normal steps that everyone does when they are looking for horses. She tried the horse, she liked the horse, she bought the horse.

Her trainer and the seller thought the horse was the right horse for her. She was looking for a small junior hunter, and this horse fit the bill.

As per AHSA rules juniors cannot ride stallions. So she gelded him. That happens a lot acatually when people import horse (or it seems like there are more stallions that people import and geld anyway).

It's all over now baby blue..

DarkerHorse

Dec. 13, 2003, 11:18 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Giddyup2:
I'm not going to take any sides here but....I was _not_ offended by Mary's comment. I too thought what GND stated was a bit odd.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don't think it is weird at all, except she HAD to geld the horse. She followed the normal steps that everyone does when they are looking for horses. She tried the horse, she liked the horse, she bought the horse.

Her trainer and the seller thought the horse was the right horse for her. She was looking for a small junior hunter, and this horse fit the bill.

As per AHSA rules juniors cannot ride stallions. So she gelded him. That happens a lot acatually when people import horse (or it seems like there are more stallions that people import and geld anyway).

It's all over now baby blue..

bucksnort

Dec. 13, 2003, 11:51 PM

Um and you just posted 7 times to say the same thing because?? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif Ok, somebody pass me a beer and let the horse flipping begin!! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

DarkerHorse

Dec. 14, 2003, 08:58 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by bucksnort:
Um and you just posted 7 times to say the same thing because?? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif Ok, somebody pass me a beer and let the horse flipping begin!! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Because I felt like it.

It's all over now baby blue..

Cospi

Dec. 14, 2003, 10:23 AM

I believe we are still a free country which means 1) GND has the right to geld her horse. and 2) Everyone else has a right to state their opinion about it.

QueenMother

Dec. 14, 2003, 12:44 PM

I think the horse is adorable. GND -- congratulations and enjoy! This is supposed to be fun!

subk

Dec. 14, 2003, 01:38 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Darker Horse:
It isn't your horse. It is NOT your buisness.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Oops Darker Horse, your ignorance is showing...

LK's future performance and uum lack of extra-curricular activities will directly affect the value of all his offspring and to a lesser degree the value of all the horses in this particular line of which there are many in our sport. THAT comes under the heading of the horse BUSINESS, and the horse BUSINESS is a large part of what this BB is about.

Gracious, I need a beer. Can someone run down to the SpeedyMart?

Karosel

Dec. 14, 2003, 04:01 PM

Well, Darker Horse, you sure aren't living up to your "occupation". http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

~Humble pie doesn't taste too good...

starboard

Dec. 15, 2003, 05:30 AM

This is funny, because I dont remember this big of a stink being raised when the grey stallion died earlier this year.

GND--the horse is adorable, and good luck with him http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

PS. A little birdie told me he was going to be gelded anyway http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Pol

Dec. 15, 2003, 05:38 AM

Starboard, a birdie told ME that LK wasn't getting the mares preggers. Same birdie? hmmmm.
I actually can't believe this thread is still puttering along!

ThirdCharm

Dec. 15, 2003, 06:51 AM

Probably b/c the grey stallion it was an accident, not an owner's decision (possibly caused by a problem with the horse itself which might affect offspring value).

I do recall some folks being upset when Nick of Diamonds died in a longeing accident, feeling the handlers should have been more careful.... so people can get funny about accidents too! If he'd been an eventer and died on xc (inherent risks and all that) I think it would not have been an issue.

Aren't people funny?

JenniferS

Moesha

Dec. 15, 2003, 07:51 AM

This is deplorable. For people who know nothing about a situation to come on here and start ranting about things they know nothing about...oh wait I forgot for a moment where I was.
Lion King and GND ride at my barn, she takes incredible care of her horses and he has settled in beautifully with teh best care around. He loves her and goes great for her and is going to be fantastic in the junior hunters next year. Bruce is very close friends with our trainers and a lot of the clinets at our barn have horses that were from his barn.
If someone wanterd to breed him..then guess what do what her family did..you should have opened up your check book...and frankly even if yuo did you probably could not provide him with half the amazing and caring home he has now.

I think a lot of apologies are owed for this jealous and bitter thread.

DarkerHorse

Dec. 15, 2003, 08:16 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by subk:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Darker Horse:
It isn't your horse. It is NOT your buisness.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Oops Darker Horse, your ignorance is showing...

LK's future performance and uum lack of extra-curricular activities will directly affect the value of all his offspring and to a lesser degree the value of all the horses in this particular line of which there are many in our sport. THAT comes under the heading of the horse BUSINESS, and the horse BUSINESS is a large part of what this BB is about.

Gracious, I need a beer. Can someone run down to the SpeedyMart?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Um. My point still stands. It is her horse, she doesn't have to tell you a thing.

It's all over now baby blue..

Janeway

Dec. 15, 2003, 08:46 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Moesha:
I think a lot of apologies are owed for this jealous and bitter thread.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

and I think you and Darker Horse need to read for comprehension. You are extrapolating big time when you say the people here are "jealous and bitter". http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif Just because some people are expressing their opinion on a publicly known horse, you assume they are jealous? Give me a beak.

If you read the thread from the beginning, you will see there was only one really negative post directed at the new owner, whereas the rest were merely lamenting the loss of a stallion. How is that bitter?

In fact, the majority of the posters here said how much they liked Lion King and were SAD he was gelded. If anything, that should make his new owner pleased that he is so well liked.

Its not the destination that matters, its the journey

Heather

Dec. 15, 2003, 08:51 AM

Darker horse is right, she doesn't have to tell us a thing. But she chose to, so we have a right to respond.

GND, congratulations on your new horse, I'm glad when any horse gets a good home and finds a job it is well suited for. I'm sure you'll be a great "mom" to him and give him top notch care, and have a great career with him.

However, as someone who has bred event horses, the truth is if a stallion I had bred a mare to was suddenly gelded, I would be upset and alarmed, because for a horse to be gelded "late in the game" implaies a defect that makes them unsuitable for breeding, which would have immediate and personal impact on my horses and my business.

Now, I will say, that if Lion goes on to be a top notch hunter for you, then, as a breeder, that would mitigate my concerns, because then I would have another market for selling my baby. But I would very much want to know why the horse was gelded and removed from the gene pool because I had put my trust AND my money in the supposition that this was a great event horse who produced event horses. There are people out there, I am sure, who are wondering if they've been "had" by putting their breeding eggs in the Lion King basket, so to speak, and so there is IMHO a legitimate reason to find out what happened and why.

Peronsally, I'm not in favor of gelding older horses, I have seen a lot of bad results from it (physical and mental), and it is not a choice I would make for myself. But it's not my horse, and it sounds like he did great with the surgery, so I wish you lots of luck in the future.

Robby Johnson

Dec. 15, 2003, 08:57 AM

I think what is probably a concern, too, is the fact that the horse was introduced as a breeding option at a VERY young age (what was it, 2 or something?) from a known line of eventing horses by a BNT and then suddenly his career changed dramatically ... maybe there is an underlying feeling that the eventing community of mare-owners/serious event horse breeders may've had the wool stretched over their eyes a little? Wouldn't be the first time, but still ...

I do agree that the horse belongs to her and it certainly appears he has a great home. I'm sure he will blossom and be fantastic for you.

Robby

So I'm a sistah, buy things with cash
It doesn't mean that all my credit's bad

http://community.webshots.com/user/rbjohnsonii

Velvet

Dec. 15, 2003, 09:07 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Peronsally, I'm not in favor of gelding older horses, I have seen a lot of bad results from it (physical and mental), and it is not a choice I would make for myself. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hell's bells, I've seen 20 year old stallions gelded and have a much happier life during their remaining years. Gelding stallions that are older (and this one was not really considered "old") just takes a vet with a lot of experience. It's a pretty straight forward operation. The only problems I've seen are with stallions with a testicle that never descended correctly.

You must have some pretty bad vets in your area. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

I can only conclude that I'm paying off karma at a vastly accelerated rate.

Janet

Dec. 15, 2003, 10:55 AM

Gry2Yng

Dec. 15, 2003, 11:03 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR> There are people out there, I am sure, who are wondering if they've been "had" by putting their breeding eggs in the Lion King basket, so to speak, and so there is IMHO a legitimate reason to find out what happened and why.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don't think it is a matter of being "had", when you breed to a young stallion you become part of a process to determine his success. It is always a risk to breed to an unproven stallion. Their stud fees are generally lower for this reason. (This is stated in a very soft tone with sympathy for those who would like other LK babies.)

Heather

Dec. 15, 2003, 11:41 AM

Although I clearly stated this was MY personal opinion . . . sorry, I wouldn't geld an older horse unless medically necessary or the difference between life and death (slaughter bound as a stud, home-able as a gelding).

I know of two stallions, gelded at the ages of 8 and 12, in one of the top vet schools in the country, who bled to death on the table.

I know a third who was gelded at 8 and whose scar tissue prevented him from returning to previous level of performance.

I know of several other instances (one of them a very famous one bordering on international incident) where a horse survivied the gelding procedure, but it removed the fire or x factor that made them great performers. The ones I know of personally were all in jumping disciplines (eventing and jumpers) and all became serious stoppers following their gelding. They just never looked the same and seememd to have lost their joie de vivre or something.

I realize all I have are anecdotal expereinces, but my opinion is that it is not something I would do, especially with a proven performer. Too much of a risk. No one has to agree with me. Obviously, everyone can and should do what they want.

Edited to add: Grey, I agree completely, and thus I put had in quotations. I phrased it that way to try to express why people would have the right to their curiosity about such a move. Not to imply any worngdoing on the part of the horse's previous owners.

JER

Dec. 15, 2003, 11:49 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>It is always a risk to breed to an unproven stallion. Their stud fees are generally lower for this reason. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

LK's stud fee (his ad was posted on an earlier page) was $2000 in his first season. That's the very top end of eventing stud fees. All the more reason for breeders/buyers to want to know what happened.

Moesha

Dec. 15, 2003, 12:02 PM

I think that I did read for comprehension and saying she is selfish and then making comments about her based on her intenet user name profile is either bitter, jealous or just plain mean. I would hope for the earlier because that is something that people generally can work on.

I understand that people who are in the breeding field or have bred to him , etc. would want to know what happened...but some of the responses here and comments were uncalled for. Mine is out of defense of a friend. She and her Mother are so dedicated and love their horses. They are two of the nicest people I have ever met, and the mean spirited comments I will again say were made in complete ignorance, if you knew the owners and trainers were thrilled that he was coming to our barn where many of their event horses have come for careers in the hunter and jumper ring.

Janet

Dec. 15, 2003, 12:04 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by JER:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>It is always a risk to breed to an unproven stallion. Their stud fees are generally lower for this reason. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

LK's stud fee (his ad was posted on an earlier page) was $2000 in his first season. That's the very top end of eventing stud fees. All the more reason for breeders/buyers to want to know what happened.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Doesn't matter what a horse's stud fee is, his first season he is "unproven", whether his stud fee is $500 or $5,000,000,000.

Janet
chief feeder and mucker for Music, Spy, Belle, and Brain

Moesha

Dec. 15, 2003, 12:13 PM

I will apologize for saying anyone was this or that, not matter how upsetting it is true that comments and not the people were upsetting.

Albion

Dec. 15, 2003, 12:14 PM

Moesha, to be fair, that was two (maybe three) mean-spirited, nasty posts out of SIX pages of this thread. I thought the 'selfish' etc. comments were quite out of line, as did others on this thread (lamenting though they may be about LK's gelding).

People ARE going to wonder, grump about it, whatever. No, they can't do anything about it, yes, it's GND's right as the horse's owner to do whatever she pleases, and yes, if people were so concerned about losing him as a stallion, they should've opened the check books. I really wish GND all the luck - hopefully she'll have lots of fun & success with him! Personal attacks on a JUNIOR (or anyone, for that matter) are certainly uncalled for, but I don't think general wondering/bewilderment/whatever is out of line.

But honestly, it's not like this is the first stallion-turned-gelding for the purposes of being a junior hunter that's sparked commentary/debate. Didn't they geld Dialog L for Georgina Bloomberg? I seem to recall some griping about that. (I think it was Dialog L, not really sure. It was a top junior hunter with a big name junior rider). People also gripe when grand prix jumpers get sold so Suzy Bigbucks can tool around the puddle jumpers on a $500K horse. That's the horse world for you.

'O lente, lente currite noctis equi' - Ovid

Moesha

Dec. 15, 2003, 02:22 PM

Albion thanks! I just was on emotional auto pilot seeing a great "kid" being mistreated by a few, and maybe they didn't really mean it as harsh as it came across.

It is true Dialogue L was a stallion who was gelded for Georgina Bloomberg to show in the juniors, but to clarify Junior Jumpers and Children's jumpers can be stallions...it is only barred for juniors to show them in the hunters.

Gry2Yng

Dec. 15, 2003, 02:28 PM

Heather, nothing personal intended. I think you are right that breeders will "wonder", I was just clarifying the point that a young stallon is risk, even more than breeding in general is a risk.

JER - please note the use of the word generally. LK was from a top line, perhaps that was the reason for the higher fee.

JER

Dec. 15, 2003, 02:59 PM

Gry2Yng -- I did note your meaning, but just wanted to point out that LK breedings did not come cheap.

Badger

Dec. 15, 2003, 03:28 PM

If the speculation posted above is true, that LK wasn't getting his mares pregnant, then it explains why his previous owner did not want to stand him any longer nor did he want to sell him as a stallion and chose instead to sell him to a performance home as a gelding. This scenario in no way detracts from the bloodline or value of the foals he did sire. Some very marketable stallions with attractive bloodlines don't deliver in the breeding shed (look at Cigar), and it is not a reflection on the bloodlines or the stallion's athletic talent. If anything, the successful breedings will have resulted in more valuable foals because of their rarity from a sought-after bloodline. If this reasoning behind LK being gelded is, in fact, accurate then mare owners will likely be relieved because it's an explanation that makes sense and does not deflate the value of LK's offspring.

On the other hand, if a hypothetical stallion is gelded because he has temperment problems, throws a genetic defect, develops early unsoundness, or is not passing along quality to his offspring or not improving on the mares he covers, then mare owners have reason to be concerned. These are the sort of questions that are naturally going to crop up when a high profile stallion leaves a stud farm and is gelded.

Unless the stallion owner chooses to offer explanation, there will be speculation when an event like this happens. Mare owners who have spent time and money to breed to the stallion successfully or unsuccessfully, as well as those who have spent time researching him and considering him or others in his bloodline for inclusion in their breeding program, do have a vested interest in the reason for the stallion owner's decision.

ThirdCharm

Dec. 15, 2003, 04:26 PM

Of course one must hope that none of his offspring were "stallion prospects" and that, if so, his 'problem' isn't heritable!! It's not like he was at the track pumped up on steroids to explain it.

JenniferS

Albion

Dec. 15, 2003, 04:38 PM

No problem Moesha - I usually enjoy your posts, just don't want to see everyone tarred & feathered with the same brush.

BTW, my comment regarding 'grand prix horses for Suzy Bigbucks' was not in reference to gelding, rather to horses at the top of their game (or close to it) being purchased so they can haul juniors around at (much) lower levels. Out of curiosity, is the stallion rule applying only to junior hunters because the hunters have their flat class?

'O lente, lente currite noctis equi' - Ovid

ThirdCharm

Dec. 15, 2003, 05:04 PM

One of my personal fave debates. I've never understood why a Junior can't be expected to safely control a stallion in the orderly environment of a Hunter flat class but it's okay for them to ride one in the chaos of a Jumper (or eventing, or dressage!) warmup ring!! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

JenniferS

Janet

Dec. 15, 2003, 08:46 PM

The "no stallion" rule applies to jr hunters, pony hunters, and pony jumpers.

Janet
chief feeder and mucker for Music, Spy, Belle, and Brain

Lisa Cook

Dec. 16, 2003, 04:36 AM

Posted by ThirdCharm:

"I've never understood why a Junior can't be expected to safely control a stallion in the orderly environment of a Hunter flat class but it's okay for them to ride one in the chaos of a Jumper (or eventing, or dressage!) warmup ring!!"

Orderly enviroment of a Hunter flat class?? Those classes can be HUGE! "Orderly" is not one of the first adjectives that comes to mind...

LisaB

Dec. 16, 2003, 06:01 AM

If he couldn't get mares pregnant and they started to not breed him as much, I would think not gelding and not breeding would cause a lot of health problems.
I know this is a dog but my SO's K-9 had to be neutered because of health problems. He is an excellent police dog but not of breeding AKC quality(his nickname is the floppy-eared m-f). So he wasn't ever bred. That caused all kinds of stoppage in the back so we had to neuter him. His performance is still good, still goes after the head when doing bite work and will pommel you just fine. And his nose can still detect people upstream and he still loves kids to pet him.
I would think ditto applies to a stallion. And folks, look at the pics, he's happy. That's what counts.

mcmIV

Dec. 16, 2003, 07:55 AM

I wish I could see these "bitter and cruel" comments in this thread.

It looks to me like 6 pgs of compliments and regrets about what a great horse he IS and a great stallion he WAS spotted with people who seem to see insults where there are none.

I've seen maybe 3 TOTAL short insult posts and about 50 complimentary good wishes.

Of all the threads to escalate into a war, this one is seems like the most benign one ever.... what's going on?

martha

make something idiot-proof and they will just make better idiots.
Proud member of the * Hoof Fetish & the NervousNellieWorryWart* cliques!

Custom Colored Stuff For your Horse Habit.
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Sandy M

Dec. 16, 2003, 10:51 AM

If there's a poll, I'm of the "It's her horse, she can do what she wants" frame of mind.

That being said, my trainer gelded an older (12) stallion because, while he was getting decent bookings, and SHE could control him without much trouble (he was a PSG dressage horse), she was doing much less breeding with him than his previous owner and he was just plain obnoxious in the stable and was going to hurt himself. As a gelding, while it took him a while to "get over it" mentally, he was a star and ended up as a much-loved schoolmaster for an amateur rider.

Another friend acquired a marvelous TB gelding who was the direct son and grandson of Kentucky Derby Winners (Determine, Decidedly), but who was obnoxiou and an idiot before gelding. As a gelding he was a stakes winner. No one lamented the loss of access to his Grade I pedigree as a breeding stallion: He was a total failure on the track before gelding, a winner afterwards. Not the case here, but darn, it is NOT that big a deal. Those who have Lion King offspring will not find them "losing value" if they PERFORM to their pedigree. If they do NOT so perform, then whether LK is a stallion or gelding becomes irrelevant.

TallyhoFarms

Dec. 16, 2003, 11:09 AM

As a side note, Cathy Wieschhoff bred her 4* mare, Spelga Dam (aka Kate) to LK last year and has a gorgeous little colt on the ground. He looks very much like his mom. There is a pic of him on Cathy's site.
Cathy's LK Colt (http://www.cwevent.com/Cathy/cathycorner.html)

Dry Clean Only

Dec. 16, 2003, 12:45 PM

This isn't the first Lion horse to become a hunter, and I am sure that if Bruce thought that he should be an event horse and a stallion he still would be, period. He's a show horse now because someone thought that was what he would be happier/better at.

He is cute as hell and I hope he makes an awesome hunter! I'm sure no one will be complaining once you start kicking butt and people can sell their LK babies for three times as much as hunters http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Moesha

Dec. 17, 2003, 07:08 AM

Albion, I am not sure? I know Meghan Garland, who rides with my trainer had her hunter gelded last year..but even as an adult she could not show in the equitation on a stallion...maybe because of the testing and switching horses and other details...she now has him gelded and is showing him in the Adult Medals..but that wasn't the reason they did it. But she would never show him u/s as a Stallion but now does in teh hunters...he was quiet but I guess the situation could present itself that would not be safe?? I have no idea?

QueenMother

Dec. 17, 2003, 10:27 AM

I imagine the jog might be an issue, too, unless the stud jogged first everytime. I can just see him following close behind a mare he found, um, desirable!

Nikki^

Dec. 17, 2003, 11:14 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Moesha:

It is true Dialogue L was a stallion who was gelded for Georgina Bloomberg to show in the juniors, but to clarify Junior Jumpers and Children's jumpers can be stallions...it is only barred for juniors to show them in the hunters.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Why then? I want to know WHY Stallions cannot compete in the Junior Hunters? I want a real answer, not just "Because the USAEq rule book says so."

Also, her profile says her occupation is to steal your Husband/Boyfriend. That to me shows that she is immature and slutty. JMO. If I was her mother and saw that, I'd give her such a beat down.

Kioko (http://www.geocities.com/area51/crater/5267/HeartofGold.html)

Look up your TB's bloodlines (http://www.dmtc.com/dmtc98/Pedigree/)

On Second Thought

Dec. 17, 2003, 11:19 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Nikkibaby27:

Also, her profile says her occupation is to steal your Husband/Boyfriend. That to me shows that she is immature and slutty. JMO. If I was her mother and saw that, I'd give her such a beat down.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

and you feel that you can make that character judgement because you've shown yourself to be a pillar of responsibility, good decisions and maturity?

Janet

Dec. 17, 2003, 11:24 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Why then? I want to know WHY Stallions cannot compete in the Junior Hunters? I want a real answer, not just "Because the USAEq rule book says so." <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>IIRC, a rule change was proposed a year or so ago (I think to lift the ban on stallions in pony jumpers), and it got voted down. Without interviewing each voter, it is pure speculation to guess "why".

Janet
chief feeder and mucker for Music, Spy, Belle, and Brain

Nikki^

Dec. 17, 2003, 11:28 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by On Second Thought:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Nikkibaby27:

Also, her profile says her occupation is to steal your Husband/Boyfriend. That to me shows that she is immature and slutty. JMO. If I was her mother and saw that, I'd give her such a beat down.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

and you feel that you can make that character judgment because you've shown yourself to be a pillar of responsibility, good decisions and maturity?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

When she acts like that. She can do whatever she wants with her horse, I'm not disagreeing with that part. I hope she has a wonderful time with her new hunter.

What would you think if your child had that on her profile?

Whatever...

Janet: Is there a way that I could find out why Stallions cannot show in the Junior Hunters? Is this only in the hunters and not other disciplines?

Kioko (http://www.geocities.com/area51/crater/5267/HeartofGold.html)

Look up your TB's bloodlines (http://www.dmtc.com/dmtc98/Pedigree/)

Moesha

Dec. 17, 2003, 11:30 AM

Nikibaby27....I honestly don;t know maybe something to do with the u/s classes or suitability...I think her profile in all fairness is just in fun,We are at the same barn and ride and show together and she is a great person. She is brilliant young woman and a wonderful rider. This is the internet and people like to have fun with their profiles...from what I know she honestly is not out prowling the streets of Washington stealing peoples boyfriends and husbands. At least I don't think she is http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

tle

Dec. 17, 2003, 11:31 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Nikkibaby27:
Also, her profile says her occupation is to steal your Husband/Boyfriend. That to me shows that she is immature and slutty. JMO. If I was her mother and saw that, I'd give her such a beat down.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hello, kettle... this is pot!
http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

************
If Dressage is a Symphony... Eventing is Rock & Roll!!!

"All's well that ends with cute E.R. doctors, I always say." -- Buffy

starboard

Dec. 17, 2003, 11:31 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Nikkibaby27:
What would you think if your child had that on her profile?

Whatever...
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Probably the same thing I'd think if my child posted about getting stoned every time she rode. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Moesha

Dec. 17, 2003, 11:32 AM

tle I just spit my $10 venti skim peppermint eggnog latte with foam out!!!

On Second Thought

Dec. 17, 2003, 11:33 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Nikkibaby27:

When she acts like that. She can do whatever she wants with her horse, I'm not disagreeing with that part. I hope she has a wonderful time with her new hunter.

What would you think if your child had that on her profile?

Whatever...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Oh, I'm sorry, are you her mother? Pardon...My mistake. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

tle

Dec. 17, 2003, 11:33 AM

Aw, Moesha... I'm terribly sorry about the latte, but at least it wasn't alcohol-abuse!! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif Just callin' 'em like I see 'em (starboard had a great response too!)

************
If Dressage is a Symphony... Eventing is Rock & Roll!!!

"All's well that ends with cute E.R. doctors, I always say." -- Buffy

Moesha

Dec. 17, 2003, 11:38 AM

I just saw that...I think I have missed something??

Nikki^

Dec. 17, 2003, 11:39 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Moesha:
Nikibaby27....I honestly don;t know maybe something to do with the u/s classes or suitability...I think her profile in all fairness is just in fun,We are at the same barn and ride and show together and she is a great person. She is brilliant young woman and a wonderful rider. This is the internet and people like to have fun with their profiles...from what I know she honestly is not out prowling the streets of Washington stealing peoples boyfriends and husbands. At least I don't think she is http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I hope not! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

Oh well. Let us all be happy that LK has a great home where he'll be loved. Good luck in the show ring!

Kioko (http://www.geocities.com/area51/crater/5267/HeartofGold.html)

Look up your TB's bloodlines (http://www.dmtc.com/dmtc98/Pedigree/)

Moesha

Dec. 17, 2003, 11:39 AM

Just for the record, GND's Mother is an amazing person. Like I said it is just a joke on her profile!

and he does have a great home. Nikkibaby27, she takes such good care of him http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif and he really is happy!! I think he has decided himnself on this career move and is ready to go!!

http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Nikki^

Dec. 17, 2003, 11:44 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by starboard:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Nikkibaby27:
What would you think if your child had that on her profile?

Whatever...
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Probably the same thing I'd think if my child posted about getting stoned every time she rode. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Oh silly starboard! You are so funny! I have kicked that bad habit over 2 months ago! I might add that I am happy that some BB have gave me props for quitting that nasty habit.

It's in my past. It wasn't fun anymore and I needed to grow up and be responsible. It was a bad habit spawned by a bad relationship with a loser boyfriend in College. I now have put my energy and time into more important things:

1. Horses
2. my second job
3. my marriage

So go ahead and kick dirt in my face, I don't care! I have brought myself up from the bottom and started a new, productive life.

Moshea: I am so happy that your friend loves her new horse. I hope the very best in the show ring!

Kioko (http://www.geocities.com/area51/crater/5267/HeartofGold.html)

Look up your TB's bloodlines (http://www.dmtc.com/dmtc98/Pedigree/)

Fairview Horse Center

Dec. 17, 2003, 11:44 AM

As a stallion owner that would LOVE to have a Junior rider compete him, I totally understand the rule. My stallion was ridden in a clinic with Joe Fargis. 9 riders going around in a 30? meter circle, junior riders on mares, Nevada's nose about 6 feet behind one. No one had a clue that he was a stallion. I even told one of the kid's moms (the one on the mare) what he was, and she didn't want me to say anything for fear of making her daughter nervous.

He is a wonderful, easy ride - but I sure wouldn't want him (or any horse) in the ring with another stallion ridden by a kid that just might not really be as controllable. Nevada is a very good boy, and knows the difference between breeding and riding, but some people might be judging their boy thru rose-colored glasses. It is just safer for the kids if there is a rule.

Darlyn
http://www.fairviewhorsecenter.com

Are We Having Fun Yet?

Janet

Dec. 17, 2003, 12:05 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR> Why then? I want to know WHY Stallions cannot compete in the Junior Hunters? I want a real answer, not just "Because the USAEq rule book says so." <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Junior Hunters. Pony Hunters.
Pony Jumpers.

You could ask 10 different people and get 5 different answers, none of which make a whole lot of sense to me. The only way to know WHY the rule was made would be to ask the people who voted for it (and who voted against the proposal to change it). But I wouldn't know how to even start tracking them down.

Janet
chief feeder and mucker for Music, Spy, Belle, and Brain

QueenMother

Dec. 17, 2003, 12:05 PM

Nikkibaby you are so silly. Or maybe just mean spirited. I guess because GND has declined to continue to comment on this thread -- having commented a few times, posted a few pictures, assured everybody that she loved the horse and that he was doing well, and that she would keep everyone posted on his progress -- you have to start picking on her personally?

IS THIS THREAD EVEN ABOUT THE CHILD? HOR WHAT HER SILLY PROFILE SAY? HAS IT EVER BEEN?

horsebabe11

Dec. 17, 2003, 12:22 PM

Hi everyone...

I dont usually respond to posts like this, but this is a HUGE exception!

For all of you who are AGAINST gelding stallions for juniors...just think of this. What if you were at a show with your in season mare. A junior leads her "very interested stallion" by you. She (because she is a junior) cannot control the horse...can you just imagine?

Secondly, This is HER horse which se probably paid a pretty PENNY for. If she decides she wants to geld him...then she can. I do understand what a good stallion this was, but what if he was even better as a GELDING? Its HER choice!

thirdly, I belive someone wanted to know why hunter juniors cannot have geldings...read my first paragraph. And no HUNTERS are not the only ones with this "so called stupid rule." Pony Club has it in effect also.

As far as I am concered, you should all leave this girl alone. It her horse, her profile...let her do with it as she pleases! We donot need to start badmouthing anyone.

coronadoSJ33 *C-3 ponyclubber*
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

"You cannot use a whip and spurs to teach a dancer to dance."

From the West comes a red mare... She comes to me.
~ Navajo chant

"You can tell a gelding, ask a mare, but you must discuss it with a stallion."

Nikki^

Dec. 17, 2003, 12:26 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by QueenMother:
Nikkibaby you are so silly. Or maybe just mean spirited. I guess because GND has declined to continue to comment on this thread -- having commented a few times, posted a few pictures, assured everybody that she loved the horse and that he was doing well, and that she would keep everyone posted on his progress -- you have to start picking on her personally?

IS THIS THREAD EVEN ABOUT THE CHILD? HOR WHAT HER SILLY PROFILE SAY? HAS IT EVER BEEN?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm sorry. I was just being silly. I can't be mean sprited, I would feel so guilty.

Kioko (http://www.geocities.com/area51/crater/5267/HeartofGold.html)

Look up your TB's bloodlines (http://www.dmtc.com/dmtc98/Pedigree/)

ThirdCharm

Dec. 17, 2003, 12:39 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by coronadoSJ33:

For all of you who are AGAINST gelding stallions for juniors...just think of this. What if you were at a show with your in season mare. A junior leads her "very interested stallion" by you. She (because she is a junior) cannot control the horse...can you just imagine?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

'Bout the same way I feel when I'm in the warmup at an Event, or Jumper ring, and some kid tears by on a semi-controllable $100K Ex-Grand-Prix Jr. Jumper. Or when some AA's psycho in-heat mare tries to take out my mare's kneecaps as they whiz by. There are many horses and riders who do NOT belong together, and categorizing seems unfair to those who are actually intelligent enough to choose their mounts wisely. I have seen more incidents caused by fractious geldings and Jrs than I have with stallions ridden by ANYONE.

JenniferS

Janet

Dec. 17, 2003, 12:50 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>For all of you who are AGAINST gelding stallions for juniors...just think of this. What if you were at a show with your in season mare. A junior leads her "very interested stallion" by you. She (because she is a junior) cannot control the horse...can you just imagine?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>The only way this argument wouyld make sense would be if (junior/childrens) hunter riders were LESS competent than (junior/childrens) jumper riders and (junior) eventing riders.

Is that your claim?

Janet
chief feeder and mucker for Music, Spy, Belle, and Brain

starboard

Dec. 17, 2003, 01:16 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Nikkibaby27:
I needed to grow up and be responsible.

I have brought myself up from the bottom and started a new, productive life.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Awwww, why edit the ballsiest part of your post? Go ahead, loser http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif? Shining example of how much you've grown. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif

Nikki^

Dec. 17, 2003, 01:22 PM

Well, I didn't think you were a loser that is all. If you want a fight, go ahead and fight. You are just showing how immature you are.

Like you are so perfect. At least I am trying to better myself.

And please, act your age, not your shoe size.

Kioko (http://www.geocities.com/area51/crater/5267/HeartofGold.html)

Look up your TB's bloodlines (http://www.dmtc.com/dmtc98/Pedigree/)

This is SO FUNNY!!! HA HA!! (http://www.hamncheez.com/download.php?flash=endoftheworld.swf)