Darren is back!

[RAyers]

You are totally right Reed. I have not been keeping up and I did read the thread on LAinie and watch the interview, once yu pointed it out.
I have no words. You are totally right and I stand corrected.
Talk about Damage control needed. If this is the attitude of some of the young up and coming, you are right, this sport is doomed!

:no::no::eek:


No apologies needed and we all know I am not totally right. I just pointed out how certain actions continue to be contrary to the words expressed.

It is just like with our government. It our duty to hold the powers that be up to the standards expected through the processes in place. We all see a sport that is in difficulty and it is up to us to help the new sport evolve, even if we do not agree with it.

We need to stop defending riders simply because they are "great" riders/trainers or what. Even Einstein was known as a philandering womanizer and subject to university sanction. As pwynn has mentioned in her desire to change the culture of eventing, we need to defend those who are great riders AND horsemen and hold them up to the light as examples for all, regardless if they are Olympic or WEG riders or not.

Jill Hennenberg is showing the way here on the BB, per her posts here on this thread.

Reed

[BaroquePony]

I remember vaguely that I thought some of the regulations for the Boston Marathon were related to health issues.

If I recall correctly, when it was first started I thought there were a number of health related incidents that occured and the officials wanted to reduce that type of incident becuase it didn't look very good AND it spoiled the fun of a good race.

[Speedy]

However you probably have to say that this sort of situation would be used as an example regardless of business model. However, if you want to only discuss eventers, let's look at Ralph Hill. He seems to be doing quite well despite not competing. I know numerous ULR/pros who seem to never go above prelim any more and have quite the clientele. Are you saying that they need to compete to maintain their sponsorships and students? The facts seem to contradict that.
Reed

I'm actually not going to speculate about any rider's personal finances on a public BB. Neither one of us knows anything at all about that. However, I think it's naive to suggest that these folks aren't impacted by the inability to compete. They DO loose sponsorships if they aren't competing. They DO loose owners/horses if they aren't competing them. They may NOT loose (all) of their students, young horse training and sales, or other income components that are not directly tied to competition, but rather to their reputations. But, for the low/mid level trainers (and even some upper level trainers), who don't have the reputation of someone like Ralph Hill, yes, I would guess that their ability to sell their services as eventing professionals when they aren't able to compete would be somewhat curtailed. They may not all be impacted in the same way, but they are very likely to be impacted.

I'm not saying finanical considerations should override good judgment about when it is appropriate to compete again after an injury, just that this sort of thing needs to be considered if new rules are made.

[BaroquePony]

Even Einstein was known as a philandering womanizer and subject to university sanction.

I didn't know that :eek: I knew he was really bad at math.

[silver2]

Rider Injury: Mandatory minimum 3 month suspension or 'lay off' for any hospital stay.
I'm sorry but that's a completely stupid proposal. I've had hospital "stays" for extremely minor things or just for observation. If you have an allergic reaction or fall and, say, aspirate water and are held overnight for observation you automatically can't compete for 90 days? That makes no sense.

If you want people to support these proposals they can't be over the top.

[RAyers]

I'm actually not going to speculate about any rider's personal finances on a public BB. Neither one of us knows anything at all about that. However, I think it's naive to suggest that these folks aren't impacted by the inability to compete. They DO loose sponsorships if they aren't competing. They DO loose owners/horses if they aren't competing them.


Hmm, and they lose them just as effectively if they are dead or otherwise incapacitated.

As this is not a public entity, the USEF can make any rule it wished regarding participation and it is up the participants to FOLLOW the rules. Many NCAA players/coaches have sponsorships that they have to fulfill but they also have to adhere to the NCAA and university rules. They have return to play rules based on concussion guidelines. The same goes for the NHL. How is anything what many of us are calling for any different? And don't tell me NCAA players (football, basketball, track and field) don't make a living. I live in that world so I do understand it.

I agree that possible repercussions must be considered but those should be a minimal point.

Reed

[BaroquePony]

silver2,

Maybe include who posted that rule idea so that when things begin to get hammered out more, your idea/comment can be addressed.

Edit to ad: there are over 49 pages of stuff containing some excellent ideas and counter-ideas that have to be slogged through, so helping with who said what makes it easier

[RAyers]

I will add that I feel that the the proposals only focus on TBIs and only at the FEI/USEF upper level for now. The idea would be that if a rider wishes to represent the USA at an international competition, they must adhere to specific standards. This can then be subsequently brought into national competition and lower levels as the process and procedures become refined.

Feel free to use any of my posts. They may bring more trouble than help.

Reed

[JER]

I didn't know that :eek: I knew he was really bad at math.

Not true. (http://www.time.com/time/2007/einstein/3.html)

[Ajierene]

silver2,

Maybe include who posted that rule idea so that when things begin to get hammered out more, your idea/comment can be addressed.

Edit to ad: there are over 49 pages of stuff containing some excellent ideas and counter-ideas that have to be slogged through, so helping with who said what makes it easier

That was me, BaroquePony. And silver2 took it out of context, read just one post and went on a little rant.

The original post is #964 and the section mentioned reads:

"My personal view.....

Rider Injury: Mandatory minimum 3 month suspension or 'lay off' for any hospital stay. Minimum 4 month lay off for concussion or loss of conciousness. Minimum 6 month lay off for a coma, etc. Also, depending on the severity of the injury, you must come back at a certain level."

Whisper then mentioned that the above seemed pretty extreme, so I elaborated in post 971:

"I understand what you are saying - unfortunately laws are not always fair and like I said, it is just a start. The problem is defining every injury - that would be much more complex and the rules need to start more simple. I stated 3 months because you are looking at 4-6 weeks to heal bones, then get back into the saddle. While not every hospital stay is because of broken bones, all the hospital visits I know of, from competitions, had concussion or broken bones.

I did not want 6 weeks because that would encourage people to start riding, possibly before the bone is completely healed. 3 months means no rush to get on your horse, you can listen to the doctor, and still have 6 weeks to ride and get back into it before the competition.

I would prefer to have it be more specific, but it is difficult, especially when initially implementing it. Well, not that difficult, someone just needs to sit down and come up with a complete list and present it to the USEA in the proper format, etc....."

As mentioned, it is an idea. If you want to discuss how it can be better, then fine - but to just call it stupid and scoff at it is not productive.

[Ajierene]

I will add that I feel that the the proposals only focus on TBIs and only at the FEI/USEF upper level for now. The idea would be that if a rider wishes to represent the USA at an international competition, they must adhere to specific standards. This can then be subsequently brought into national competition and lower levels as the process and procedures become refined.

Feel free to use any of my posts. They may bring more trouble than help.

Reed

So you are stating that we start with just addressing international competitions? Darren is competing in national competitions, right? I see what you are saying in 'starting simple', but it will not prevent certain members from being out there in the short run. It may still be best to start there, I just want to be clear.

In other words - the events Darren is competing in now, he would still be able to compete in, but he could not compete in the CCI or CIC ones?

[BaroquePony]

JER,

Alright ... then how in the heck did Einstien get such a bad reputation as to practically go down in history as "being bad at math"?

I suspect he probably was outstanding in math from what I learned about him in university, but he somehow has gotten this wierd reputation for being really bad at it.

Maybe all of his math peers couldn't understand his level of thinking and then thought he was not so bright?

[BaroquePony]

I think we should look at national regulation before international.

Edit to ad: I think spinal-cranial should be the priority.

[RAyers]

Right now there are mechanisms to track who is competing internationally so we know who is where. That is something that does not exist at the national level, thus it is easier to start there than national. Even though DC and others compete at national competitions they are part of the group who competes internationally so he is already "tracked". I am not saying the FEI needs to do this but that the USEF needs to start at the top few riders and work down as the system is developed.

At the same time because he and others must request permission to compete internationally, the paperwork is simplified to find out if they have met the TBI criteria.

Trying to create a national system for all levels is going to be very difficult at the outset so it is easier to start small before going large.

[JER]

Trying to create a national system for all levels is going to be very difficult at the outset so it is easier to start small before going large.

But what about tying the AAN criteria in to a return-to-play policy for all levels? This would be for concussions/TBIs that occurred in competition and therefore shouldn't be too difficult to track/implement.

This is one area where it's equally important for all levels. You shouldn't be riding at BN with a concussion.

[RAyers]

But what about tying the AAN criteria in to a return-to-play policy for all levels? This would be for concussions/TBIs that occurred in competition and therefore shouldn't be too difficult to track/implement.

This is one area where it's equally important for all levels. You shouldn't be riding at BN with a concussion.

I agree! However how does the criteria get applied? Will there be a central review? Do we take any independent clinical review as in DC's case? Will there be a review of the incident using the new accident report forms as part of the case file and who will coordinate the entire deal?

That is why starting with the smaller group can serve as the prototype for the larger group. It will be the paperwork that makes things hard. So we need to figure out how to keep that at a minimum before exposing the entire membership to such criteria.

[lizathenag]

JER,

Alright ... then how in the heck did Einstien get such a bad reputation as to practically go down in history as "being bad at math"?


Maybe because he flunked 8th grade math (which was a reflection of the teacher, not the student, I suspect).

[BaroquePony]

Maybe because he flunked 8th grade math (which was a reflection of the teacher, not the student, I suspect).

:lol: :yes:

[IFG]

I see one real problem here. That is that if you link the set-down to medical care, it may deter some people from seeking necessary medical care.

In the early days of the AIDS epidemic, I worked at the NYC Department of Health. One of the major problems that we had to address was whether to inform known sexual contacts that they had potentially been exposed to HIV.

Mandate contact notification, and you deter those potentially infected with HIV from being tested. Don't inform contacts, and you have withheld information from them. This was before anti-retrovirals, so the only approach was prevention.

The quandry is here too. Base set-down rules on hospitalization or MD visits, and the potentially injured may avoid care. No answer, just wanted to raise the issue.

[Ajierene]

I see what you are saying IFG and it is a difficult one. For certain things, there is not much avoidance possible for the competitor - such as the injuries sustained by Darren and Laine. Yes, people who have nasty looking falls may decline medical attention - but isn't there a rule in effect that they have to if a head injury is suspected, or be fined?

That rule will alleviate most of the issues with voluntarily seeing a medical professional.

[frugalannie]

Wanted to bump this up so that the great ideas that were generated don't get lost.

[frugalannie]

Bumping up so I can extract from it more easily.

[Sannois]

DArren is listed as riding 11 horses at Richland:eek::eek::eek:
Head injury or not thats just iinsane. :no:

[LexInVA]

Eleven horses is a lot. I don't think I've ever seen more than eight being ridden by one person at an event.

[Fairview Horse Center]

DArren is listed as riding 11 horses at Richland
Head injury or not thats just iinsane. :no:

That in itself may be a big sign of just how brain injured he still is - rational thinking is not happening.

[J Swan]

DArren is listed as riding 11 horses at Richland:eek::eek::eek:
Head injury or not thats just iinsane. :no:

Holy Moly. That's a helluva lot of horses for even a very healthy fit athlete. Uh..... I don't recall a competitor who has ridden that many horses. Do I even dare ask if this is a record?

[TyB]

Boyd Martin has 14 rides at Fair Hill this weekend. Maybe there should be a limit one person is allowed to ride in one event.

[LexInVA]

Boyd Martin has 14 rides at Fair Hill this weekend. Maybe there should be a limit one person is allowed to ride in one event.

I don't see that happening unless there was a HUGE outcry to implement it. It's part of the business model and there are too many folks with a say in the matter who would likely object to it.

[Jazzy Lady]

Some of Darren's are cross overs doing the event as well as the YEH.

[NeverTime]

He's riding eight horses, not 11. Is that a lot? Yes. Do professionals like Phillip Dutton, Boyd Martin, Sally Cousins and, um, Darren Chiacchia, do it ALL THE TIME? Yes again.

From the original post-accident comments and concerns about big-picture issues, it seems like the Darren-bashing is degenerating into pettier and pettier issues:

* Posters argue no doctor can clear him to ride, and yet they - as entirely uninvolved strangers, can say with total certainty he isn't ready.

* He takes off his helmet briefly during an awards ceremony ... on a schooled horse who he's ridden forever ... :eek: He is Satan incarnate. No TBI survivor should do such a thing, ever. How dare he. It leaves one wondering how we can resist starting a whole thread on each and every rider who's ever had a concussion and donned a hunt cap or top hat for dressage ever after. You never know what might happen, after all, and these injuries are cumulative.

* He helps run a clinic intended to demonstrate proper XC riding technique and instead of being grateful that a clinic opportunity is offered, people complain about him being involved. It would be so much better to deprive less experienced riders of a learning opportunity that might prevent them from having a future crash.

* He rides the same - seemingly unmanagable - number of horses that other pros with working barns do and he's a crazy man. When Phillip does it, most people just consider it another amazing feat by an amazing rider. Darren crashes on a horse that's done some novice and training before going prelim and gets castigated with perfect 20/20 hindsight. Phillip takes a horse to Rolex for its fifth-ever event at the advanced level and not a peep.

I'm not a student or a fan of Darren's, but the pettiness and seeming glee with which people have started trolling for fellow Darren-bashers is getting as ludicrous and the excuse that all this is in the name of safety and concern for our sport -- an excuse that rings more and more hollow with each time it is repeated.

[BaroquePony]

Originally posted by LexInVA:

It's part of the business model

I would like to suggest if this is "part of the business model" than they should begin paying for better jump judges, research on specific issues and vet checks, etc.

[Jazzy Lady]

Thank you NeverTime

[J Swan]

I don't disagree with you. I'm just shocked that he is recovered enough to ride that many horses. Even for a fit athlete, that's a lot of horses. I know he was in excellent physical condition prior to the accident, but his injuries were pretty bad - it's surprising he'd come back that quickly.

He's riding eight horses, not 11. Is that a lot? Yes. Do professionals like Phillip Dutton, Boyd Martin, Sally Cousins and, um, Darren Chiacchia, do it ALL THE TIME? Yes again.

From the original post-accident comments and concerns about big-picture issues, it seems like the Darren-bashing is degenerating into pettier and pettier issues:

* Posters argue no doctor can clear him to ride, and yet they - as entirely uninvolved strangers, can say with total certainty he isn't ready.

* He takes off his helmet briefly during an awards ceremony ... on a schooled horse who he's ridden forever ... :eek: He is Satan incarnate. No TBI survivor should do such a thing, ever. How dare he. It leaves one wondering how we can resist starting a whole thread on each and every rider who's ever had a concussion and donned a hunt cap or top hat for dressage ever after. You never know what might happen, after all, and these injuries are cumulative.

* He helps run a clinic intended to demonstrate proper XC riding technique and instead of being grateful that a clinic opportunity is offered, people complain about him being involved. It would be so much better to deprive less experienced riders of a learning opportunity that might prevent them from having a future crash.

* He rides the same - seemingly unmanagable - number of horses that other pros with working barns do and he's a crazy man. When Phillip does it, most people just consider it another amazing feat by an amazing rider. Darren crashes on a horse that's done some novice and training before going prelim and gets castigated with perfect 20/20 hindsight. Phillip takes a horse to Rolex for its fifth-ever event at the advanced level and not a peep.

I'm not a student or a fan of Darren's, but the pettiness and seeming glee with which people have started trolling for fellow Darren-bashers is getting as ludicrous and the excuse that all this is in the name of safety and concern for our sport -- an excuse that rings more and more hollow with each time it is repeated.

[msj]

He's riding eight horses, not 11. Is that a lot? Yes. Do professionals like Phillip Dutton, Boyd Martin, Sally Cousins and, um, Darren Chiacchia, do it ALL THE TIME? Yes again.

From the original post-accident comments and concerns about big-picture issues, it seems like the Darren-bashing is degenerating into pettier and pettier issues:

* Posters argue no doctor can clear him to ride, and yet they - as entirely uninvolved strangers, can say with total certainty he isn't ready.

* He takes off his helmet briefly during an awards ceremony ... on a schooled horse who he's ridden forever ... :eek: He is Satan incarnate. No TBI survivor should do such a thing, ever. How dare he. It leaves one wondering how we can resist starting a whole thread on each and every rider who's ever had a concussion and donned a hunt cap or top hat for dressage ever after. You never know what might happen, after all, and these injuries are cumulative.

* He helps run a clinic intended to demonstrate proper XC riding technique and instead of being grateful that a clinic opportunity is offered, people complain about him being involved. It would be so much better to deprive less experienced riders of a learning opportunity that might prevent them from having a future crash.

* He rides the same - seemingly unmanagable - number of horses that other pros with working barns do and he's a crazy man. When Phillip does it, most people just consider it another amazing feat by an amazing rider. Darren crashes on a horse that's done some novice and training before going prelim and gets castigated with perfect 20/20 hindsight. Phillip takes a horse to Rolex for its fifth-ever event at the advanced level and not a peep.

I'm not a student or a fan of Darren's, but the pettiness and seeming glee with which people have started trolling for fellow Darren-bashers is getting as ludicrous and the excuse that all this is in the name of safety and concern for our sport -- an excuse that rings more and more hollow with each time it is repeated.

Amen! Thank you NeverTime.

First off, quite possibly Darren will have his young rider, Cristin Stoop, ride some of those horses since he had her ride all but his 2 upper level horses at GVH.

Secondly, no one is denying the fact of the seriousness of the brain injury and future tragic injuries might occur while competing but they could also happen just walking out to the barn and tripping.

Thirdly (is there such a word?), Darren was in wonderful physical condition before the fall so it's very understandable that his body has bounced back as quickly as it did and Darren probably figured his mind did as well (whose to really know what went on in Darren's mind). We had a football accident happen last fall with Buffalo Bills player, Kent Everett. He had severe spinal cord damage and the Drs said he'd never walk again - that he'd be a paraplegic. Well guess what! A few months later he walked into the Bills dressing room. Again, an athlete in great physical condition. Now I do realize there is a big difference between the brain injury and spinal cord injury.

I'm not supporting Darren's decision to ride and compete so soon after the fall and subsequent injuries. But those that know him, know he is an extremely strong-willed individual and, let's face it, if he wants to ride and it's OK with the owners, then there is nothing anyone can do about it unless the USEA or USEF do something and it's pretty obvious that the powers to be aren't about to.

There are a lot of people on this thread that are very concerned for Darren, some for the sport, some for the horses and some for all three but as NeverTime pointed out there are also those whose "pettiness and seeming glee" that have "started trolling for fellow Darren-bashers is getting as ludicrous and the excuse that all this is in the name of safety and concern for our sport". Those people and their comments we could do without. :sigh:

[JER]

* Posters argue no doctor can clear him to ride, and yet they - as entirely uninvolved strangers, can say with total certainty he isn't ready.

* He takes off his helmet briefly during an awards ceremony ... on a schooled horse who he's ridden forever ... :eek: He is Satan incarnate. No TBI survivor should do such a thing, ever.

At this stage in his recovery, Darren is still a TBI patient. Yes, he survived but he's not -- can't be -- fully "recovered." His brain is still making new connections, still 'adjusting', so to speak.

NeverTime, Jazzy Lady and others -- if you go back through this thread, you'll see that some of the 'uninvolved strangers' here are people with real-world experience with and knowledge of TBIs. As long as Darren is more or less the same carbon-based life form as the rest of us, we have to assume that his brain tissue and neurophysiology are that of homo sapiens sapiens everywhere. This is what informs our reasoning.

What's clear to me from your posts is that your POV is informed by a lack of understanding/knowledge of a TBI.

[One Star]

Cristin is not Darren's "young rider." She is an adult, his longtime groom, and right hand at his farms in NY and FL. She is an accomplished trainer and competitor in her own right. :yes:

[msj]

Cristin is not Darren's "young rider." She is and adult, his longtime groom, and right hand at his farms in NY and FL. She is an accomplished trainer and competitor in her own right. :yes:

Thanks for that info One Star, but when you're a senior citizen (me) anyone under 30 looks like a young rider. :D :D I agree she is a very accomplished rider. :) :yes:

[gottagrey]

At this stage in his recovery, Darren is still a TBI patient. Yes, he survived but he's not -- can't be -- fully "recovered." His brain is still making new connections, still 'adjusting', so to speak.

NeverTime, Jazzy Lady and others -- if you go back through this thread, you'll see that some of the 'uninvolved strangers' here are people with real-world experience with and knowledge of TBIs. As long as Darren is more or less the same carbon-based life form as the rest of us, we have to assume that his brain tissue and neurophysiology are that of homo sapiens sapiens everywhere. This is what informs our reasoning.

What's clear to me from your posts is that your POV is informed by a lack of understanding/knowledge of a TBI.

Is anyone here on this post one of Darren's Neurologists? If not, then I think it's pretty safe tosay that Nevertime, Jazzy Lady, and others are correct - no one is debating the seriousness of a brain injury. NeverTime your post right Right ON ! Particularly as you say, the Gleeful Darren bashing.

I for one do not necessarily want to reveal my private medical history to the USEA.

[BigRuss1996]

Actually Fairhill is over two days with 4 different divisions (2 divisions each day). I think if you look at the divisions you will find Boyd is not riding 14 in one day.



Boyd Martin has 14 rides at Fair Hill this weekend. Maybe there should be a limit one person is allowed to ride in one event.

[Sannois]

Boyd Martin has 14 rides at Fair Hill this weekend. Maybe there should be a limit one person is allowed to ride in one event.

How can anyone be alert and competant with that kind of schedule. Brain injury aside.
14 is outlandish. Why is their not a limit. Its more like an assembly line.
Its not like 11 or 14 hunter rounds. three rides EACH!
Nuts! :no::confused::mad:

[annikak]

Hate to chime in here, as I don't think ANY of the Darren bashing does one damn bit of good- I think, personally, that its great he is strong enough and capable enough to run and work his farm as opposed to crying in his spilt milk. AND- Media coverage is always slanted. so his TV coverage is not just appealing to us, but the masses. Talking about out of body experiences is JUST what they want for TV appeal. Com'on, ya'll are smart enough to know that!

And I would guess that Darren will NOT ride all those horses, but some of them. It's NOT closing just yet, (or was not...) AND...he needed the slots so he would be sure to get in. Called Double Entry. Smart if you make your living riding horses.

Trying to decide what is best for the sport is one thing...this other stuff....ugh.

[jumpjesterjump]

Amen! Thank you NeverTime.

First off, quite possibly Darren will have his young rider, Cristin Stoop, ride some of those horses since he had her ride all but his 2 upper level horses at GVH.

Secondly, no one is denying the fact of the seriousness of the brain injury and future tragic injuries might occur while competing but they could also happen just walking out to the barn and tripping.

That could have been a possibilty, except for the fact that Cristin recently left Darren's to pursue other things. So he might have one of his other students ride the horses, or he might decide to scratch some of them, with him who knows.

[gottagrey]

Agree w/ the Double entry bit and the number of horses - while Darren has numerous entries listed on RedHills if you check more than just the horse count all of them were shown as "awaiting funds" so its possible that he had no intention of actually RIDING that many Ditto for Boyd Martin

[frugalannie]

So rather than bashing individuals (which I am totally against, BTW), how about we discuss the underlying questions.

Does riding more than one horse in a competition increase the possibility of serious injury? Are there other reasons to limit the number of rides per person?

Should there be a limit as to the number of horses that one competitor (pro or ammy) can ride in a single competition?

If not, why not?

If so, how many? Should the allowed number change by level (ie: 3 training horses but only 2 advanced)? Should it change if the event runs all on one day, over two days or three?

[Carol Ames]

nirvana002 (http://www.chronicleforums.com/Forum/member.php?u=113446)
thank you!, that it made it all much easier to understand!:yes: Is Windfall'ds owner able to help him?; :( I believe that he has had some personal experience with TBIs, with on of his kids ( human)

[Carol Ames]

f he has had two neurologist clear him then what more can he do. He needs to live his life to the fullest as he has learned each day is precious and if he needs to keep riding and competing than so be it. It's his life and we can only hope things go safely and wish him the best.:) http://www.chronicleforums.com/Forum/images/buttons/quote.gif (http://www.chronicleforums.com/Forum/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=3330471)

[evntr]

thank you Never Time
It's about time to stop this thread