Darren is back! [Archive] - Page 4

Simkie

Jul. 13, 2008, 05:46 PM

A reasonably intelligent child of six would know better than to return to competition at any level this close after a major brain injury.After reading this whole thread this afternoon, I am reminded of MY TBI.

I was in a car accident 10 years ago that left me with a grade 3 concussion, a broken neck--stable fracture of C5--and a severe hand injury that's required 7 surgeries (to date, will probably need more.) I was in the hospital for a week. I was very lucky that I bled from my ears for several days, as it relieved the pressure in my skull.

10 weeks after the accident, I ran my horse novice.

WHAT THE HELL WAS I THINKING? I was only 18, but I probably should have known better. I can't believe my trainers didn't put their foot down and say NO. They should have. Even though I felt I was "there" enough to make the decision, I really wasn't. I understand the decision Darren made.

Ghazzu

Jul. 13, 2008, 05:47 PM

I think, by the fact that he limited himself to his two most experienced horses and finished just fine, that we have much to be thankful for. I don't give a crap what his scores were.

Agreed.

awm

Jul. 13, 2008, 06:02 PM

You should have heard the cheers that went up when Darren went past the
Patron tents after both of his rides!!!!

I think the silent majority spoke up!

Ajierene

Jul. 13, 2008, 06:03 PM

I think his time faults indicate this weekend was as much about proving to himself he could still be competitive as anything else. The time faults indicate to me that he was taking his time and making sure he knew what he was doing. To me, that is a great indicator.

I am glad he dropped his other three rides and stayed with his two experienced rides. I think the time faults mean he is not at 100% yet, but he figured it out and took his time.

poltroon

Jul. 13, 2008, 06:08 PM

That's excellent. I'm glad he had a good experience, I'm glad he cut back to two horses, and the time faults make me cheer too.

Bensmom

Jul. 13, 2008, 07:37 PM

That's excellent. I'm glad he had a good experience, I'm glad he cut back to two horses, and the time faults make me cheer too.

Me too. I still think the two rule changes I've called for several times in this thread are needed, if not for DC, then perhaps for other, different situations, and I would still have preferred to see him take longer to come back.

BUT, I am thrilled that he got around safely and thrilled to see the time faults, because that means that he was careful and did listen to those around him that encouraged him to be safe.

Libby

CANTEREOIN

Jul. 13, 2008, 07:52 PM

I saw the scores before logging in tonight. I am thrilled that he completed. May he grow stronger and continue to take is easy while doing so.

Jazzy Lady

Jul. 13, 2008, 08:13 PM

Hopefully I can report something back as happy as this from Stuart this week! Keep on the careful Darren! :)

Gry2Yng

Jul. 13, 2008, 08:15 PM

Agreed.

Moi aussi.

avezan

Jul. 13, 2008, 08:22 PM

I think his scores look great! Great dressage scores. Absolutely no jump penalties and the time penalties on XC tell me that he did listen and take his time and go around carefully and cleanly. I am so happy and relieved to see this. Go Darren! Stay safe.

msj

Jul. 13, 2008, 08:23 PM

You should have heard the cheers that went up when Darren went past the
Patron tents after both of his rides!!!!

I think the silent majority spoke up!

Yep! :D It was pretty awesome! Guess you could say Darren is a western NY darling - at least to a lot of us. :D :D

Jazzy Lady, we'll all be keeping a close watch on Darren at Stuart as well. He's a local favorite there as well! :D

Gry2Yng

Jul. 13, 2008, 08:24 PM

[QUOTE=KayBee;3357905]

Case 3:
Coworker's daughter is born cross-eyed. Opthamologist, when kid is 10 or so, prescribes corrective exercises. Father googles condition/treatment, discovers specialists. Pioneering specialist is in area. Specialist says exercises are 15 to 20 years out of date and not at all appropriate (in fact are contraindicated). Father asks "why is it still being prescribed, then?" Answer (from specialist): because a) some doctors are too old to have received proper training and have not kept up with new discoveries and b) some medical schools are, apparently, not providing proper instruction in this specialty.

Bolded above has been my unfortunate experience. I have been diabetic since the age of 13 (over 25 years now). Most GP's are WAY behind the times. Even some endos. This is off topic, but we all need to be aware that medical advice can be anything from VERY WRONG to very outdated. We must be advocates of our own health care.

I am very pleased to hear that things went well for Darren today. My philosophy has been to drink champagne before the first jog (at a three day). It is a blessing just to get to the start line, you never know what will happen after the horse is put in his stall that first night. Let's all just drink a toast and be happy that we got through this weekend and take it one day at a time. Hopefully, Darren will do the same.

dudleys

Jul. 13, 2008, 10:04 PM

As the concern was throughout this weekend of Darren's early return ended on a good note. Looking at his scores he did a great job. He had time faults and that is it. So that goes to show he was listening to himself and others about taking it slow. We all have or own way of getting on with our lives some faster than others. No one truly knows what another is capable of doing. All our bodies are different and some people especially those who take care of themselves properly come back sooner than other's. So Darren with each step you take I wish you well. Congrats to you for a successful weekend.

fergie

Jul. 13, 2008, 11:13 PM

No one truly knows what another is capable of doing. All our bodies are different and some people especially those who take care of themselves properly come back sooner than other's.

No. Not true at all with a closed head injury. Your brain can only heal so fast. Your cognitive abilities may come back sooner than other TBI's, but your brain is still just as vulnerable for REINJURY according to the grade of TBI you suffered. He was in a coma for at least a week - that's no joke. Wait until he hits his head again, on a door jam or anything, and see how his brain swims around in his head. It's cumulative...... Just keep pushing that envelope...... It's just stupid. But then, I guess there's plenty of time to rest when you're dead.

grayarabpony

Jul. 13, 2008, 11:26 PM

You should have heard the cheers that went up when Darren went past the
Patron tents after both of his rides!!!!

I think the silent majority spoke up!

I think everyone here is happy that Darren made it around fine, and hopes that he will continue to do well and not do too much too fast. If no one cared this thread wouldn't be so long!

CarrieK

Jul. 14, 2008, 12:07 AM

I'm truly happy that his weekend went well!

BaroquePony

Jul. 14, 2008, 12:22 AM

fergie, I do know that I am more careful. There was a NZ or Australian dressage rider last year (can't remember his name) that was an outstanding rider. His horse slipped in the dressage ring and went down and he hit his head really hard. End of career. His doctors said that he had had several other TBIs in his lifetime, and this was the last he could take without serious dysfunctionality. Period. None of his were ever as serious as Darren's.

Several of the dressage rider's previous TBIs were attributed to something else, like playing soccer when he was younger, but the others were obtained through what I would consider minor horse related injuries.

I have had a horse fall in the dressage ring (incorrect foundation under footing, was slick as glass). We hit so hard it knocked the wind out of my horse. I was lucky, I did not hit my head. Popped the nail head out of my brand new dressage saddle. Boy was I smoked when I found out about the crappy footing - a little late.

pwynnnorman

Jul. 14, 2008, 06:09 AM

Hey, a friend of mine sent me video!

This is what she said about it: "Too bad you can't hear Darren [on the video]. On the first ride (I missed taping it) he gave the horse all the credit. In the 2nd clip, he thanked me then he told the crowd that Windfall said, 'Hey, Dad. We're not DONE yet!'"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b57p__DiRr0

goobs

Jul. 14, 2008, 09:57 AM

Wow! Thanks so much for the video! Darren's smile and the pure joy on his face was so genuine. Pure happiness - beaming!! He rode beautifully from what I saw - taking it easy, having fun, measuring himself. His horses seemed to know and take care of him, really listening.

Madeline - why would you chide Darren for taking his Advanced horse prelim? I would rather him do that than take a horse that is not past prelim level. To these advanced horse jumping prelim is like novice - a safer bet. Plus the bond between Darren and these horses is solid and strong (esp with Windfall). Plus a lot of people buy upper level horses to take the novice and training.

The more I think about this the more I think Darren is doing this because of the pure love of riding and competing. We are all concerned and still are for him. He is very brave to go out there. I hope Stuarts goes well for him also - but I will admit I am nervous for him and will continue to be nervous for him - and not just about him showing but him riding in general. He can have a fall while schooling or something. His saving grace is that he is very strong mentally and physically. All those hours of cross training are really paying off right now.

pwynnnorman

Jul. 14, 2008, 10:15 AM

Yeah, I was really glad she got some close up footage. His expression on Windfall was priceless.

Madeline

Jul. 14, 2008, 10:32 AM

...

Madeline - why would you chide Darren for taking his Advanced horse prelim? I would rather him do that than take a horse that is not past prelim level. To these advanced horse jumping prelim is like novice - a safer bet. Plus the bond between Darren and these horses is solid and strong (esp with Windfall). Plus a lot of people buy upper level horses to take the novice and training.

I just don't see the point. At this time, DC is at pretty high risk for permanent damage everytime he walks up or down the stairs. I go back to my "A child of 6 knows better" than to jump right back in in such a short time after a major head injury. We should all know about the cumulative effect of head injuries. Why tempt fate? Why tempt fate in such a public venue? No matter how much you have a bond with your horse and how much you love riding, common sense is common sense.

As a parent would you let your child do what DC has done? If not, why do you think it's OK to hold it up as admirable?
I'm glad he didn't get hurt, but the fact that he walked away from this outing doesn't make it a good decision.

Black Points

Jul. 14, 2008, 12:32 PM

For those interested, here is a rather long link to photos from GVH this weekend. Darren's photos start in row 14. Make sure you copy and paste the entire link into your browser.

http://www.kodakgallery.com/ShareLandingSignin.jsp?Uc=nh6ry35.93a2jyxp&Uy=-5vtq66&Upost_signin=Slideshow.jsp%3Fmode%3Dfromshare&Ux=0&UV=280428441236_661520186605&localeid=en_US

I saw some of Darren's rides and he looked great. He's been riding and riding exceptionally well for so long that his muscle memory can take over as far as the mechanics go. So unless the horse makes a mistake, he should be pretty safe from falling off in MHO.

As to why he chose to ride his advanced horses in prelim, I would think that they aren't that fit but Darren knows that they are fit enough and good enough that a mistake at prelim is very unlikely. It also rained most of the day so I assume Darren went slow because of the footing. All in all, he was very successful at his comeback and we will all be rooting for him at Stuart this next weekend.

Mary

deltawave

Jul. 14, 2008, 12:52 PM

At this time, DC is at pretty high risk for permanent damage everytime he walks up or down the stairs. I go back to my "A child of 6 knows better" than to jump right back in in such a short time after a major head injury. We should all know about the cumulative effect of head injuries. Why tempt fate? Why tempt fate in such a public venue? No matter how much you have a bond with your horse and how much you love riding, common sense is common sense.

As a parent would you let your child do what DC has done? If not, why do you think it's OK to hold it up as admirable?
I'm glad he didn't get hurt, but the fact that he walked away from this outing doesn't make it a good decision

Exactly right. Why can't the celebration be postponed another few months or half a year? So much safer, and surely one's emotional state and "feel good" moments are trumped by the physical reality of a God-awful brain injury?

I'm very glad he got around safely, but I still think it's dead wrong for him to be risking his life, his future, his health and yes, his horses' safety, at this point in time. :no:

JER

Jul. 14, 2008, 12:55 PM

Exactly right. Why can't the celebration be postponed another few months or half a year? So much safer, and surely one's emotional state and "feel good" moments are trumped by the physical reality of a God-awful brain injury?

I'm very glad he got around safely, but I still think it's dead wrong for him to be risking his life, his future, his health and yes, his horses' safety, at this point in time. :no:

Seconded.

pwynnnorman

Jul. 14, 2008, 01:09 PM

goobs

Jul. 14, 2008, 01:48 PM

I can certainly understand the concern of 'why is he doing this so early and putting himself at risk' points. BUT - Darren really knows how to ride, really knows what he is doing, he took it very slow, doing this may help with his recovery emotionally and mentally - IOW the not giving up and die attitude but the stay strong I won't be backed down attitude. After thinking about this AND coming home from a H.T. yesterday I have to say - Darren is being more responsible than the people who were riding in divisions that they had no business riding in. They were much much more at risk of getting hurt and hurting their horses than Darren coming back after this injury. I saw a horse almost break his leg because his rider had no clue that a stop at a down bank into the water at training level should have been a reapproach. This horse stuck one leg down and crumpled the rest of his body on the bank and then dragged himself back up. Poor riding - and there was a LOT of it. I can't even count how many people approached a training level jump telling their horse to whoa for the last 3 strides and pulling back or how many people got eliminated at the water - when things like ditches and water should be solid skills in a horse by the time they move up to training. These people give our sport a bad name with the multitude of injuries to themselves and to the riders. If Darren gets reinjured while competing - I am sure the world won't be saying he has given the sport a bad name. He will be responsible for being singled out and getting the "i told you so" that will be coming to him.

Mistakes happen at all levels whether you are riding at home or not - can't change that - but to minimize the risks by taking the time to learn how to ride correctly and cross training (which I personally feel is mighty important with this sport) is something that Darren DOES do - he is a shining example of that. Maybe because he was/is so physically fit he bounced back a bit quicker than most people could have.

I will still be biting my fingernails and hoping for the best for him. I personally wish he'd take it a bit easier and not go Intermediate at Stuarts but what can one do? It is what it is.

fergie

Jul. 14, 2008, 08:43 PM

Maybe it's because I had a TBI myself, but when I watched the video I thought Darren did not look "right" ..... at all. He looked very tentative and timid, not tight, secure and aggressive - the way you should be in cross-country. If you have to ride around cross-country in your dressage seat, as he did, that tells you that you should not be riding cross country at all. To me also seemed tired and zoned out when he finished to me. Maybe I can see this better since I lived through it myself. Stuart - that course is no joke. Cross-country is not designed to be crawled around, and actually, I think it's more dangerous to try to do it that way instead of the way it was designed to be ridden..... But I'm only speaking as one who's been in a coma myself.....

Gry2Yng

Jul. 14, 2008, 09:09 PM

Well, given how it played out, I don't think he risked his horses' safety going slow around such a familiar Prelim course on two international campaigners. Indeed, with hindsight, I think it was probably the very best way it could have gone down. With those two horses, there was no risk for the sport, not in the sense of the horses' safety. Those two (certainly Windfall) would know enough to stop -- and would have had plenty of time to stop -- if DC had made some big, weirdass mistake on course that put them at peril.

So, in the end, the only risks he took were for himself -- and he has a right to risk himself. And even had he gotten hurt, it would have hurt the sport no more than his initial injury, IMO: all the same connections and ramifications (minus the younger horse) would have been in place, just as before.

I really should just bite my tongue, but pwyn - your logic is really faulty. Just because nothing happened doesn't mean there was not risk. Drawing to an inside straight is against the odds but just because you don't doesn't mean you couldn't.

In addition, the horses are very savvy, that doesn't mean they would have the ability to save themselves if DC made some as you say "weirdass mistake". I don't know how you conclude that the only risk was to himself.

If he had gotten hurt eventing would be the sport that let a man out on course less than 6 months after a TBI. We would all look like a bunch of morons. How do you explain that to your friends when they read about it in the NY Times?

I am really glad things went well for Darren. I hope his soul is singing with the joy of competing his horses. I am glad he only rode 2, but I cannot condone what he did or the fact that the rules allow for it. I think it would be great if he held that joy in his heart and took some time to heal. Doesn't look like that is going to happen, so I will just try to take care of the things I have control over.

The whole thing does not become "safe" or a "good idea" just because it turned out okay.

BarbB

Jul. 14, 2008, 09:27 PM

If he had gotten hurt eventing would be the sport that let a man out on course less than 6 months after a TBI. We would all look like a bunch of morons. How do you explain that to your friends when they read about it in the NY Times?

I am really glad things went well for Darren. ... but I cannot condone what he did or the fact that the rules allow for it....The whole thing does not become "safe" or a "good idea" just because it turned out okay.

I agree.
(underline added by me)

deltawave

Jul. 14, 2008, 10:22 PM

there was no risk for the sport, not in the sense of the horses' safety

This just boggles my mind. How on earth can anyone be saying, especially in 2008, that there is "no risk" in the sport?? It's all a calculated risk.

As I and many other posters have said before: "would you let your child go XC 3.5 months after a devastating brain injury?" Or, to paraphrase my erstwhile signature line, "If you think your perceived self-actualization and personal satisfaction are more important than your brain, you're probably correct". :no:

That he got away with it does not make it "the right thing", not by a mile. Big sigh of relief on everyone's part, but what next--another "all clear" and "full steam ahead"?

Evalee Hunter

Jul. 14, 2008, 10:29 PM

This just boggles my mind. How on earth can anyone be saying, especially in 2008, that there is "no risk" in the sport?? It's all a calculated risk. . . .

Deltawave, I love your posts, but, in this case, the poster said there was no risk FOR the sport. I THINK what they were trying to say is that Darren was not causing problems for eventing by what he did - that he was not making the sport look bad. That is quite different from saying there is no risk IN the sport (risk to participants in the sport).

wabadou

Jul. 14, 2008, 10:36 PM

I was not going to weigh in here but ACKKKKKK!
He managed to make it around the course with "two international campaigners" who have, God Bless them, learned to place their total faith and trust in a person with intact judgement and ability. pre-TBI, and thank GOD nothing bad happened....
As a mom with 2 teens who consider the ULRs their role models, I have to say that this is a horrible example of judgement, especially given his position as the head of the safety committee!!!!!!!!!!!
So he made it around safely, what about others with lesser ability, with a TBI who might cite his success as a justification to follow his example such a short time after an injury ???? HOLY COW, people!!!!
To say it's ok because nothing bad happened is, ARGGGHHH!, beyond comprehension. People drink and drive and justify it all the time because they did it before and didn't get hurt or hurt anyone.... a certain percentage probably don't hurt anyone or get caught, but it's certainly should not be cited as a justification for having done it !!

deltawave

Jul. 14, 2008, 10:57 PM

If anything, ANYTHING, God forbid, happens to DC for the rest of his career, it will leave people wondering if he should have been allowed to return to the saddle competitively. (obviously nobody can stop him from riding on his own) This is a terrible burden for him to bear, obviously, and I do feel for him in that regard. But what I absolutely can't fathom is why he can't just WAIT, for his own sake.

BaroquePony

Jul. 14, 2008, 11:13 PM

Originally posted by wabadou:

As a mom with 2 teens who consider the ULRs their role models, I have to say that this is a horrible example of judgement, especially given his position as the head of the safety committee!!!!!!!!!!!
So he made it around safely, what about others with lesser ability, with a TBI who might cite his success as a justification to follow his example such a short time after an injury ???? HOLY COW, people!!!!
To say it's ok because nothing bad happened is, ARGGGHHH!, beyond comprehension. People drink and drive and justify it all the time because they did it before and didn't get hurt or hurt anyone.... a certain percentage probably don't hurt anyone or get caught, but it's certainly should not be cited as a justification for having done it !!

USEA United States Enabling Association :yes:

CarrieK

Jul. 14, 2008, 11:37 PM

And so it begins: no harm, no foul... :(

pwynnnorman

Jul. 15, 2008, 06:50 AM

I really should just bite my tongue, but pwyn - your logic is really faulty. Just because nothing happened doesn't mean there was not risk.

Oh, honestly, Gry2Yng. It's not my logic that is faulty, it is your reading skills.

And...

He managed to make it around the course with "two international campaigners" who have, God Bless them, learned to place their total faith and trust in a person with intact judgement and ability.

More bull. You can't have it both ways. Bunch of you argued quite loudly for the necessity that event horses "take control of the jump" and are NOT reliant on their riders. Now you're saying that two of the most experienced horses in the country are so reliant on their rider AT PRELIM that they would have capsized had he made a mistake.

Have you paid ANY attention to Windfall's career and attitude?

The selective perception of folks never ceases to amaze me.

But what I absolutely can't fathom is why he can't just WAIT, for his own sake.

I doubt you mean this, deltawave. You know why he couldn't wait: ego -- including the need to prove to himself and to others that he's the exception he (and oh-so-many top athletes) convince themselves they are. Look around, people. Top equestrians are no different than other top athletes. I can't understand why people think this sport should be handled or expected to be different from others in the basic elements (good and bad) that make sport sport.

deltawave

Jul. 15, 2008, 08:07 AM

And nobody dared to puncture the man's ego when he is clearly not in his right mind? Great. "Couldn't" is so rarely a literal thing. :no: Top athletes may have more drive and grit than the rest of us, but that does not mean they are necessarily gifted with more brains. Particularly brains that are immune to permanent damage. :(

Wynn, do you really believe that a horse can't have a terrible accident even jumping around a XC that is ten times below it's level of capabililty? :( A simple stumble or slip could unseat even the best of riders. Heck, even a stiff drop fence is enough G-force to deliver more impact to a fragile brain than it probably can withstand. It's not whether DC made a mistake or not, it's the simple fact that one can NEVER do anything around or with a horse that is completely risk-free. We all accept this, but it should NOT (IMO) be tolerated in the setting of recent TBI. If the barn is on fire and you have to get your horse out, fine--do what you must. But larking around just to say "I'm back, hooray!" is utterly irresponsible IMO and the fact that the man did fine does not change the fact that he is still at enormous risk for permanent, devastating injury if something unexpected should happen, wonderful horse or no.

Precious Lendon

Jul. 15, 2008, 08:23 AM

Top equestrians are no different than other top athletes. I can't understand why people think this sport should be handled or expected to be different from others in the basic elements (good and bad) that make sport sport.

It just seems that other sports have better rules in place to protect their top athletes from their egos.

I agree with others...just because nothing happened this time, does not mean he did not take completely unnecessary risks. I pray that nothing happens this week!

Gry2Yng

Jul. 15, 2008, 09:43 AM

pwynn,
Must be my reading, cause it sure seems that you are saying all's well that ends well, which I find to be faulty logic, if that is not what you are saying, perhaps you can re-phrase so I can understand your point.
gry

Trixie

Jul. 15, 2008, 10:10 AM

He's been riding and riding exceptionally well for so long that his muscle memory can take over as far as the mechanics go. So unless the horse makes a mistake, he should be pretty safe from falling off in MHO.

Sorry, this too falls under faulty logic. We have all been quite well-versed in the fact that accidents happen, and even on the very safest of horses, there is no such thing as “safe from falling off.” There are plenty of quite experienced riders who have had bad accidents at the WALK, never mind over a course of solid prelim sized fences.

Well, given how it played out, I don't think he risked his horses' safety going slow around such a familiar Prelim course on two international campaigners. Indeed, with hindsight, I think it was probably the very best way it could have gone down. With those two horses, there was no risk for the sport, not in the sense of the horses' safety. Those two (certainly Windfall) would know enough to stop -- and would have had plenty of time to stop -- if DC had made some big, weirdass mistake on course that put them at peril.

So, in the end, the only risks he took were for himself -- and he has a right to risk himself. And even had he gotten hurt, it would have hurt the sport no more than his initial injury, IMO: all the same connections and ramifications (minus the younger horse) would have been in place, just as before.

Bunch of you argued quite loudly for the necessity that event horses "take control of the jump" and are NOT reliant on their riders. Now you're saying that two of the most experienced horses in the country are so reliant on their rider AT PRELIM that they would have capsized had he made a mistake.

I agree with BarbB and Gry2Yng. May be some of the most experienced advanced horses in the country, but do you think it’s likely that if their rider makes a mistake, they won’t be affected in the slightest? Sometimes, when a rider misjudges something, the horse can save them. Other times, they cannot. If he made a “big, weirdass mistake” there’s a good chance that going over solid fences at speed that the horses wouldn’t be able to save him or themselves. Talented as though they are, they aren’t superhuman.

There have also been a thousand discussions as of late that the upper level courses are set so that any small mistake can very easily be fatal, nevermind a “big, weirdass mistake.” Granted, he’s riding at Prelim now, but as you said, as a top athlete, he’ll certainly be gunning to get back on top ASAP.

I absolutely think it would effect the sport if he had another accident. It’s got enough black eyes already, and it doesn’t need more. The initial injury hurt the sport enough, quite BADLY in fact, with a very experienced advanced rider getting nearly fatally injured on a “preliminary” course. That doesn’t look good in the New York Times.

My feelings exactly about the ridicule that is going on. No one knows what Darren and his family have gone through and people seem to enjoy making such comments. Do people think this will not go full circle? Eventually the people who truly care about Darren will read or see these dissrespectful comments and ads.

DISRESPECTFUL? Frankly, I think the overwhelming majority have been CONCERNED. That’s the beauty of a public forum, though – if anyone in DC’s camp would like to come on here and speak up, they are more than welcome to, and I’m sure everyone here would be happy to listen.

This board is being used inappropriately and I hope who is in charge will start taking charge.

No, this board is being used as a discussion forum, as it’s supposed to. When the moderators have an issue with a discussion, they do take charge.

pessoakbark

Jul. 15, 2008, 10:11 AM

Ja Da Dee

Jul. 15, 2008, 10:18 AM

I think probably more than his "ego", it's the fact that he's so passionate about riding and competing that he can't stay away. I spent time with him this weekend at the trials; a lot....He's fine. Even with him recovering from a serious head trauma he rides smarter and better than 50% of the riders out there eventing...no one is stopping them because they ride poorly and make STUPID decisions, like going into jumps kicking AND pulling the reins because they don't know how to ride. It's over. He made it around. He rode beautifully.

No one is disputing that he's a good rider, and a smart rider. Where the concern is that his brain is not healed even though he thinks it is, and he could be permenantly damaged if there was any trauma to his brain. Hopefully this was just the "get back in after you fall" ride, and he will take it easy for 6 or so more months. Sadly, it doesn't sound like that's the case though.

deltawave

Jul. 15, 2008, 12:52 PM

I spent time with him this weekend at the trials; a lot....He's fine.

So your qualifications to declare him "fine" are . . . ?

JER

Jul. 15, 2008, 12:58 PM

He's fine. Even with him recovering from a serious head trauma...

You are either 'fine' or 'recovering from serious head trauma' but not both.

BaroquePony

Jul. 15, 2008, 01:01 PM

Originally posted by deltawave:

So your qualifications to declare him "fine" are . . . ?

USEA United States Enabling Association :lol:

Ghazzu

Jul. 15, 2008, 01:08 PM

But what I absolutely can't fathom is why he can't just WAIT, for his own sake.

Because he got whacked upside the head, maybe?:D

It is frustrating.
I'm glad he made it around and appeared to be taking it "easy".
But it would be nice if, now that he's shown himself and everyone else he *can* still do it, he can settle down and heal for a bit.

Sightunseen

Jul. 15, 2008, 01:10 PM

I am happy DC got around at the event. I think it is REALLY tough to make a decision like he is having to make right now. He feels great, he feels like he is riding well and he thinks he is taking it easy. Does that mean in retrospect that one day he might say WTF why did you people let me do that? Yes, it is completely possible. And unfortunately in most sports they do allow players to play at their own risk. Steve Young had to make the decision because his dr told him one more concussion and you could be a vegetable, so HE CHOSE to stop playing, the 49ers were more then happy to let him play if he wanted. And as far as a horse not being able to save their ride, have any of you gone out and watched the whole of Prelim and Int? or gone to a YR camp and seen some of them ride? I have constantly seen riders with horses that are saving them left and right, and not even with a rider who is just sitting quietly, so to say that a 4* horse could not jump around a Prelim course with little to no instruction seems a little ridiculous to me. And I have seen MANY a horse, MINE INCLUDED, blow off their pilot and make the better decision about a distance, striding, etc. I necisaraly condoning what DC has done, but I see many reasons why he has done it. And if he does get hurt again, well then it is on the governing board and DC himself. And really I think if people think that he is a HUGE danger to our sport and his horses they need to start writing letters or e-mails rather then just saying how stupid everyone is for letting him do it. If you are that worried, e-mail him, and the show organizer, and the TD and the USEA and everyone else who is concerned with the horse and DC himself. That is the only way he will stop riding, if someone FORCES him to.

deltawave

Jul. 15, 2008, 01:29 PM

Already did that, sightunseen. No replies from USEA. :no:

Nomoreusernames

Jul. 15, 2008, 01:33 PM

Sadly, all the "hero worship" and defending Darren's poor decisions are actually impeding Darren's chances for a complete recovery.

Sightunseen

Jul. 15, 2008, 01:37 PM

Already did that, sightunseen. No replies from USEA. :no:

All I can say is just be persistent. I think if it is something that is as important to people as it seems to be that they should ride the a** of everyone they can to get something done.

And I dont think there is a "full recovery" meaning that even once his brain is "all healed" he will always be at risk due to the damage that he once had. My old trainer stopped competing for this reason.

ideayoda

Jul. 15, 2008, 01:44 PM

Brain injuries are never 'all healed', they are cumulative. And the (total) of the true effect(s) do not show up until years later (ie Mohammed Ali).

pessoakbark

Jul. 15, 2008, 01:54 PM

fine? He's witty, personable, remembered people from the valley who he has met before, coached properly, rode properly, managed his time properly. He's smart and has a sense of humor...he realized an error in scoring. This man is totally back in the game.

pwynnnorman

Jul. 15, 2008, 02:16 PM

deltawave

Jul. 15, 2008, 03:20 PM

Keep1Belle

Jul. 15, 2008, 03:34 PM

So you've never seen a horse slip on a turn, take a bad step, make a mistake on course?

It's RISK vs. BENEFIT. The risk to DC's future health right now is enormous should he take another blow to the head. Enormous. The benefit of him riding his Olympic horse around a Preliminary Horse Trial? Ummm, is there one, really?

When, at what time, or what would you need to see from him to feel OK with him competing.

I mean if his doctors said he is ok, he feels ok, his clients are letting him ride and teach there horses/students, then all we can do is say ok he is ready to come back slowly.

At some point we have to get back on the horse. When would you feel its OK for DC to ride and not feel that he is subjecting himself or his horses to added risks of not being "ready" to compete.

ETA: this is not just directed at Delta Wave but others that feel he is not yeat ready. In your opinion, when would that be? Because the folks qualified to have an opoinion in his life, clearly feel he's ok to come back slowly.

LLDM

Jul. 15, 2008, 03:39 PM

Sorry, but I have to continue to disagree that he put anyone or anything but himself at risk. As I said, you can't have it both ways. This wasn't a hard Prelim course and he was NOT going "at speed." And we all know full, full, FULL well that there are a ton of "packers" out there saving the butts of the idiotic riders every single day over much bigger jumps, much less familiar terrain and MUCH faster speeds. I suspect he took them over Prelim jumps so they wouldn't get careless about super-low fences (for them), but also so that they could do the course blindfolded (figuratively speaking) if they had to. In sum, those horses were absolutely no more at risk than any upper level event horse packing some inexperienced rider around--and because they were actually "packing" an experienced rider, they were indeed far, far less at risk.

IMO, to argue anything else would be to contradict other discussions we've had.

You don't get to have it both ways either. There is a huge difference between saying he didn't put anyone/anything at risk but himself and then say it is because there are other/worse situations out there.

Yes, there many worse and more dangerous horse and rider combos - but that doesn't make DC any safer. Those combos aren't Darren - and while they shouldn't be out there either, it is easier for the sport to say they were "wanna bes" who didn't know any better. Nor do they don't have any head injuries (that everyone knows about).

What makes the Darren situation "worse" is that he IS one of our best, he is a role-model, he is on the safety committee, he is an ICP instructor and if he is unwilling to be super cautious with eventing's reputation and his own health - why the heck should anyone else? It validates the dangerous idiots.

Like it or not, he signed up to be a superstar. Part and parcel of that, IMHO, should be a heightened responsibility to set the right example to all participants and the public perception.

But, I must be alone in that thinking - considering the chosen 2008 Eventing Team.

God help us all if anything goes wrong in HK or with DC in the next couple of months. I am honestly so worried and can't even bring myself to watch.

I would have watched Teddy. Teddy was hope - the underdog who did it right and was done right by. He came by it honestly and earned his way. He made it all about being The Pony - and by extension, made it all about the horses. Now it's all about the riders - and I am not sure I could care any less.

SCFarm

deltawave

Jul. 15, 2008, 03:42 PM

It's not for me to say. It's not really any of my business, even, other than the fact that he is a very, very public "face" on MY sport and I don't want to see the sport's name blackened any more than it has been. If I'm not mistaken, the membership fees I pay to USEA are the same as DC's. What he's potentially doing to the sport is scary, which pales in comparison with what he could potentially be doing to himself. :no:

I sincerely doubt his doctors said "he is OK" to do what he's doing. Really and truly and seriously doubt it. A doctor can't MAKE someone do anything, however. Tacit approval is not the same as explicit approval.

At NO point do we "have to" get back on the horse. Sorry, but that's a fact. If DC were my loved one, I would make as powerful an argument as I knew how to not let him on a horse for a year or more, maybe never, and I would go to the mat about it, too. This is of course one person's opinion, and it may be extreme-sounding, but I'm trying to picture him as my child, loved one, etc.--I care very deeply about the happiness of my loved ones, but not to the point of risking their life and future. Better sad for a while than dead or in a PVS forever, IMO. Obviously I wouldn't cease to love this person if he/she refused to see things my way, but I would make my feelings known. I also realize not everyone feels this way about life and risk. But IMO DC is not behaving rationally right now, and therefore his loved ones ought to be doing it for him. Nobody has to adopt my radical viewpoint, but what on earth is the harm in having him chill out for another 6 months or a year???

pwynnnorman

Jul. 15, 2008, 03:42 PM

So you've never seen a horse slip on a turn, take a bad step, make a mistake on course?

It's RISK vs. BENEFIT. The risk to DC's future health right now is enormous should he take another blow to the head. Enormous. The benefit of him riding his Olympic horse around a Preliminary Horse Trial? Ummm, is there one, really?

But you make my point for me, don't you, Deltawave? The risk to the horse is the same as any--my point was that, under this particular set of conditions, Darren really didn't add to the horse risk, certainly no more than any other rider on course. And I did say he risked himself--but that that is his right to do. Oliver Townend went 'round Badminton two weeks after breaking his collarbone. He could barely use his arm and after finishing, all but collapsed in pain. Granted, his physical risk--on the surface--was perhaps not as significant as DC's TBI, but his physical ability and its impact on his riding and what--looking below the surface--could have occurred (missed distance, poorly balanced approach, rotational fall, etc.) is parallel to DC's...if not worse, since, again, an "unsound" rider taking four-star horses around a familiar Prelim course is far less risky than an "unsound" rider taking a four-star horse around a four-star course.

And how many examples of that have we seen over the years?

deltawave

Jul. 15, 2008, 03:48 PM

Well, splitting hairs over the risk to the horse is fine, if you buy that DC is actually perfectly fine and in complete control of his faculties as evidenced by one weekend's performance. Even a drunk driver can walk a straight line now and then. But actually I care a whole hell of a lot more for the human beings involved in this sport. Myself included. DC included. I want there to BE a sport 10 years from now. Which is why I totally disagree that he has a "right" to risk himself competing in a sport that is funded by people clamoring for MORE SAFETY. He has a "right" to do whatever the heck he pleases on his own farm, on his own horse. But he doesn't have (IMO) any "right" whatsoever to take the sport down with him on his Kamikaze dive.

Keep1Belle

Jul. 15, 2008, 03:51 PM

JER

Jul. 15, 2008, 03:52 PM

At some point we have to get back on the horse.

No, we don't. No one has to get back on the horse. You may choose to get back on the horse but you don't have to get back on. Let's just dispense with that fiction once and for all.

When would you feel its OK for DC to ride and not feel that he is subjecting himself or his horses to added risks of not being "ready" to compete.

ATA: this is not just directed at Delta Wave but others that feel he is not yeat ready. In your opinion, when would that be? Because the folks qualified to have an opoinion in his life, clearly feel he's ok to come back slowly.

Is coming back to to the level at which you were injured and riding multiple horses really starting back slowly?

Whether you think he's 'fine' or not, Darren is at risk for re-injury -- even a subsequent concussion in his case could have a drastic outcome -- for a long while yet.

Like blackwly (a neurosurgeon) and others have pointed out, the brain doesn't heal from this kind of trauma in a matter of months. A brain isn't a bone, for better or for worse.

The USEA and USEF need to have a policy for returning to competition after a TBI. Maybe a good idea would be to tie it into the AMA concussion criteria that Reed posted on this thread. Grade 1 = x days of no competition and so on.

Tiki

Jul. 15, 2008, 03:57 PM

I can certainly understand the concern of 'why is he doing this so early and putting himself at risk' points. BUT - Darren really knows how to ride, really knows what he is doing,OK, wait a minute, I'm missing something here. So how did the accident happen in the first place? Did he at that time not really know how to ride or really know what he was doing then?????

pessoakbark

Jul. 15, 2008, 04:07 PM

horsekpr

Jul. 15, 2008, 04:15 PM

For a short time I worke d for a woman(and her husband) who used to event. She had a bad fall ,and broke her neck.It healed ,and she went back to riding ,but the Dr.s told her that if she had another fall she would likely be paralysed.She switched to dressage.her husband develeped a knee problem,and had surgery to fix it. Apparently after the surgery his knee never was quite what it used to be ,so he also gave up eventing in favor of dressage. Both of these riders were very good uppper level competitors,and continue to be so. i think they both felt that they could have more longevity in dressage than eventing given the wear and tear on their bodies.
I am not suggesting that Darren give up eventing.I just wish he would consider waiting a while until getting back into the upper levels of competion for his own sake ,and also for the sake of the sport.I don't think it makes sense to be on the safety committee when your actions show little regard for your own safety.
I understand that brain injuries are cumulative ,but isn't he more at risk for permanent injury if he suffers another blow so soon after the last one?

fordtraktor

Jul. 15, 2008, 04:19 PM

At the risk of causing a riot -- DC has to get back on a horse, because that's how he makes his living.

I appreciate the concern of many people on here, but the fact is that most of us cannot go significant periods of time with no or reduced income. Particularly after suffering a catastrophic injury. And particularly in this economy. It is not the safest choice, no, but it is the reality of life.

I can empathize with DC. I've had two major head injuries, one causing amnesia and the other seizure and unconsciousness (though I wasn't out for nearly as long as DC). In both cases, I was back on a horse in under a month -- including on the colts I was riding when I had the accidents. It was risky, but I had to pay my bills. In fact, I will always be at risk because of these accidents, but that is something I have to live with.

I could have chosen not to ride -- but is that a realistic choice for a trainer in this business? Not really. That's why I quit training for $$ a few years later and became a lawyer.

For what it is worth, the head injuries I had did not significantly impair my riding ability in the months after the falls. I had a hard time with concentration and focus for long periods (particularly for things like reading or writing), but never had a problem just riding the fence(s) in front of me one at a time -- like I always have. Piecing that together into a course was not a problem. DC's injury was worse, but I would not be surprised if he has a similar response.

Accidents can happen, but the fact that he is not 100% does not necessarily mean he is not cognitively OK for riding. It is not rocket science. Whether he is physically OK for riding is something that he, his doctors, and his family have to decide, given the realities of his health AND his business.

Nomoreusernames

Jul. 15, 2008, 04:21 PM

pessoakbark "....everyone should be congratulating him instead of saying he's wrecking "their" sport."

OMG...

You really don't get it at all...

Keep1Belle

Jul. 15, 2008, 04:24 PM

No, we don't. No one has to get back on the horse. You may choose to get back on the horse but you don't have to get back on. Let's just dispense with that fiction once and for all.

Is coming back to to the level at which you were injured and riding multiple horses really starting back slowly?

Whether you think he's 'fine' or not, Darren is at risk for re-injury -- even a subsequent concussion in his case could have a drastic outcome -- for a long while yet.

Like blackwly (a neurosurgeon) and others have pointed out, the brain doesn't heal from this kind of trauma in a matter of months. A brain isn't a bone, for better or for worse.

The USEA and USEF need to have a policy for returning to competition after a TBI. Maybe a good idea would be to tie it into the AMA concussion criteria that Reed posted on this thread. Grade 1 = x days of no competition and so on.

JER: can you answert when do you fell he would be okay to comeback and at what level?

I do agree that a policy would be good, but its proably all subject to an individual and their doctor clearing them. maybe having a "cleared" policy would be a good start

As someone who has had a grade 4 concussion I know that you dont bounce back and they can have lasting effects, etc.

I think a lot of people are saying you cant do this you cant do that have never competed/ridden nor ever will to the level that DC has ridden. And I dont mean that as a slight. And Im not even a huge DC fan. I say it to say that soccer mom sally falls from horse and has a TBI, no she probably shouldnt ride again or definitely rethink how very slow she comes back into it. But an international level COMPETITOR, who has years of training and experience, well their level for coming back is going to be somewhat higher than soccer mom sally.

Are you guys suggesting he start at novice? Just do pleasure riding for the rest of his life.

I mean even upper-level or advanced riders in their respected disciplem who have been permanently injured still get back on as therapeutic riders/sdtudents. To suggest someone not get back on, who probably at one time has ridden more horses in a day or week than most of us do in 1 or 2 months time is absurd. We aren't them. dont push your (not you specifically) standard onto them, its a whole nother level.

grayarabpony

Jul. 15, 2008, 04:31 PM

I just hope that he doesn't come back too fast, or everyone here urging caution and a low comeback will be able to say, I told you so. :no:

JER

Jul. 15, 2008, 04:45 PM

JER: can you answert when do you fell he would be okay to comeback and at what level?

Not as a professional. I'm an EMT not a neurologist.

I do agree that a policy would be good, but its proably all subject to an individual and their doctor clearing them. maybe having a "cleared" policy would be a good start

This didn't work in the NFL. I'd prefer a comprehensive policy in the sport organization. This is what F1 and, I believe, NASCAR does.

As someone who has had a grade 4 concussion I know that you dont bounce back and they can have lasting effects, etc.

What is a grade 4 concussion? What scale are you talking about? The Cantu/ACSM, Colorado Medical Society and American Academy of Neurology go to Grade 3.

I think a lot of people are saying you cant do this you cant do that have never competed/ridden nor ever will to the level that DC has ridden. And I dont mean that as a slight. And Im not even a huge DC fan. I say it to say that soccer mom sally falls from horse and has a TBI, no she probably shouldnt ride again or definitely rethink how very slow she comes back into it. But an international level COMPETITOR, who has years of training and experience, well their level for coming back is going to be somewhat higher than soccer mom sally.

TBI has nothing to do with riding ability. TBI is about injury to brain tissue. Brain tissue is brain tissue. Level of return should concern on the healing time for the brain and the current state of neurological function.

Put another way, if soccer mom sally sits out for 3 years, then comes back to eventing, I wouldn't be so worried about her as I would be about DC at 5 months post-injury.

Are you guys suggesting he start at novice? Just do pleasure riding for the rest of his life.

Nope. Personally, I'd like to see him sit out this season. I think riding at Novice isn't a great idea either. You can give your brain a good jarring over a 3' fence.

I mean even upper-level or advanced riders in their respected disciplem who have been permanently injured still get back on as therapeutic riders/sdtudents. To suggest someone not get back on, who probably at one time has ridden more horses in a day or week than most of us do in 1 or 2 months time is absurd. We aren't them. dont push your (not you specifically) standard onto them, its a whole nother level.

Therapeutic riding is a different kettle of fish, lots of supervision and safety protocols.

RAyers

Jul. 15, 2008, 04:50 PM

...Which is why I totally disagree that he has a "right" to risk himself competing in a sport that is funded by people clamoring for MORE SAFETY. He has a "right" to do whatever the heck he pleases on his own farm, on his own horse. But he doesn't have (IMO) any "right" whatsoever to take the sport down with him on his Kamikaze dive.

THERE! There is what is NOT being considered by the FEI, USEF, and anybody involved with safety.

Too many people use the tired and worn adage, "It is their right. Leave them alone." That no longer holds any meaning once this SPORT became sponsor driven, spectator driven, amateur/low level rider driven.

This SPORT is NO LONGER about the individual any more. Again, look at NASCAR, F1, (competitive) skiing or any other sport where an individual competes on the larger stage. The governing bodies reserve their RIGHT to refuse to allow participation based on safety risk. It ceases to be the individual's right to play. Well, Eventing likes to say it has evolved and this is part of that evolution.

I say that the USEF MUST have a professional, independent Safety Committee with professional medical doctors whose job is to clear UPPER level riders if they suffered traumatic injuries. No, a note from a competitor's doctor won't cut it.

Sure DC needs income but it won't count for much if he is killed or permanently disabled due to Second Impact Syndrome.

Folks need to realize, and especially the upper level pros need this hammered into their heads, Eventing can disappear from the face of the Earth tonight and VERY, VERY, VERY few people would notice or care. Athletics are a luxery, not a necessity. Those who choose to live a life based on this need to also need to see that their life can be snuffed out in a moment if the economy collapses or a massive epidemic overtakes the horse world. Pro athletes are just NOT that important in our daily lives other than for entertainment. Yes, it is great to watch a true athlete perform. I love competing with them because I learn a lot about myself but if they quit or can't ride tomorrow, what impact does that have outside of their small sphere?

I'd rather DC be pushed out and be ALIVE and functioning as the world's greatest waiter than dead or debilitated and forgotten over the years as a former top rider.

Reed

Keep1Belle

Jul. 15, 2008, 04:57 PM

Not as a professional. I'm an EMT not a neurologist.

This didn't work in the NFL. I'd prefer a comprehensive policy in the sport organization. This is what F1 and, I believe, NASCAR does.

What is a grade 4 concussion? What scale are you talking about? The Cantu/ACSM, Colorado Medical Society and American Academy of Neurology go to Grade 3.

TBI has nothing to do with riding ability. TBI is about injury to brain tissue. Brain tissue is brain tissue. Level of return should concern on the healing time for the brain and the current state of neurological function.

Put another way, if soccer mom sally sits out for 3 years, then comes back to eventing, I wouldn't be so worried about her as I would be about DC at 5 months post-injury.

Nope. Personally, I'd like to see him sit out this season. I think riding at Novice isn't a great idea either. You can give your brain a good jarring over a 3' fence.

Therapeutic riding is a different kettle of fish, lots of supervision and safety protocols.

When I went to the hospital from having a terribkle fall the ER doc and susiquent neuro person said what I was was a grade IV concussion, meaning I should not do anything jarring for the 8 to 10 weeks. I think I stayed out for about 6. THey also warned about personality changes, dizzy spells, etc. And said I was lucky to have my helmet on because if not they wouldnt have been speaking to me. you say there is no grade IV so I will pull my records to say whats on there, not for arguments sake, but just o see what they put down there for my sake.

Anyway, so once he sits out this season, your timeline, what level would you like to see him start out at?

My poiunt about the therapeutic riding was that there is that want to get back on a horse. I mean this is his lifestyle. and that goes beyond a hobby or an occupation as a trainer. Of course he is not going to sit out forever as some people suggest would be best.

We will agree to disagree. Its all just our opinions and ours really dont matter as its really none of our business.

JER

Jul. 15, 2008, 05:00 PM

This SPORT is NO LONGER about the individual any more. Again, look at NASCAR, F1, (competitive) skiing or any other sport where an individual competes on the larger stage. The governing bodies reserve their RIGHT to refuse to allow participation based on safety risk. It ceases to be the individual's right to play. Well, Eventing likes to say it has evolved and this is part of that evolution.

I say that the USEF MUST have a professional, independent Safety Committee with professional medical doctors whose job is to clear UPPER level riders if they suffered traumatic injuries. No, a note from a competitor's doctor won't cut it.

This is absolutely true. This is the sort of thing we should be fighting for.

Our sport can no longer rely on giving the appearance of safety. It hasn't worked. It's time for real safety.

RAyers

Jul. 15, 2008, 05:02 PM

Keep1belle,

It is our business because it is OUR sport!!!!!

Reed

P.S. I posted the definitions of concussions per the medical establishment earlier on in this thread (somewhere in the first few pages). There is no accepted Grade IV concussion.

Black Points

Jul. 15, 2008, 05:59 PM

FYI, Darren's family was there to cheer him on this past weekend and they were right in the patron's tent with the rest of us. Of course they yelled the loudest as he rode by on his horses after his cross country rounds. Their presence suggests to me that they are supportive of his decision.

I have also heard that he has been cleared to ride in national competitions but not yet cleared to ride in FEI competitions.

I agree that it's his decision and and as he is following the existing rules, let's just let him ride!

Mary

Sightunseen

Jul. 15, 2008, 07:29 PM

I think it is interesting because everyone is talking about how DC has impaired judgment, and then is blaming him for his poor decisions. HELLO!!! if he has impaired judgment he is NOT going to make good decisions. This is something that needs to be brought to the USEA. And if everyone who felt like DC must stop ride ASAP to "save their sport" e-mailed Kevin Baumgardner then maybe something would happen, but instead these people are here complaining how he is ruining our sport. Agreeed he is a danger to himself, but that danger is ALWAYS going to be there.

Ajierene

Jul. 15, 2008, 07:58 PM

coming back at the level he was doing? he's a 4 star rider....i think prelim is a little lower. and he couldn't have two better horses than gus and windfall to come back on...so yeah, i'd say he's doing it about as slowly as possible...4 star horses are pretty hard to ride at the lower levels - nothing to back them off. prelim with those two horses was the safest and slowest way for him to start back....everyone should be congratulating him instead of saying he's wrecking "their" sport.

Correction: The reference was to coming back at the level he go injured at, not the one he has competed at. He was injured riding a young horse over the Prelim course.

Personally, I still would have liked to see him come back slowly - and not do Stuart (this weekend, right?)

As far as Therapeutic riding goes - completely different. Therapeutic riding horses have to be vetted for soundness as well as temperment, bombproofness and all sorts of other things. Depending on the individual, they have one person leading, and one on each side. If they are more independent, they will have less direct supervision, but they do not ride without being under someone's watchful eye, they do not jump 2 ft, let alone over a Prelim cross country course....so many differences.

I am not saying Darren should be in that kind of a program, just saying that to say someone that has been permanently injured 'got back on' in that kind of a program is the same as Darren 'getting back on' and riding a Prelim course is really not correct.

deltawave

Jul. 15, 2008, 09:36 PM

Of course his family is supportive. Being an enabler does not make one a bad or un-loving person.

I know several trainers--former BNTs--who no longer compete and only occasionally ride. Their clinics are still full and they are paying their bills doing that and other things. No, he doesn't HAVE to ride, any more than any of us HAS to ride. We have a very skewed view of "necessity" in this first-world, 21st century bubble. :)

I have emailed the USEA, no reply. :(

flutie1

Jul. 15, 2008, 09:38 PM

Deltawave, you are my hero!!

flutie

Jeannette, formerly ponygyrl

Jul. 15, 2008, 09:50 PM

snoopy

Jul. 15, 2008, 09:57 PM

Deltawave, you are my hero!!

flutie

:yes:

JER

Jul. 15, 2008, 10:16 PM

delta -
isn't it USEF who would need to make the return to play rule, and thus receive the email, or the rule change proposal? What can USEA do, really? (I mean, they do lots, but in this situation...)
I have wondered if a separate thread discussing a "return to play" rule might be a productive discussion. Haven't gotten to it, but here's tossing the idea out to the crowd...

I've been thinking about this, too.

It seems to me that eventing has different issues with TBIs/concussions/serious injuries than other equestrian disciplines. Would a USEF policy/rule apply to all disciplines or just eventing?

The number deaths/serious injuries to UL riders/horses is unique to eventing among the USEF disciplines. I can't see all the disciplines agreeing on a return-to-play policy anyway, especially when most disciplines don't even require helmets. What we need is a specific policy for eventing.

So can this go through the USEA or does it have to be a USEF policy? Anyone know?

dudleys

Jul. 15, 2008, 10:18 PM

Trixie you pull out your quotes and turn it around as concerns. If you read what I wrote in respond to think-about-it then you would rephrase what you wrote. Disrespectful absloutely to all who poked fun with their ads and his sexuality that is disrespectful and this board is being used inappropriately when people are doing just that. Go back and read them yourself. Maybe I missed something?
Concern is one thing disrespect is what that was all about!!!!!!

Jazzy Lady

Jul. 15, 2008, 10:23 PM

Random question... did Darren wear his approved helmet for dressage at GVH?

BaroquePony

Jul. 15, 2008, 10:26 PM

Who's Trixie?

snoopy

Jul. 15, 2008, 10:29 PM

[QUOTE=dudleys;3364061]Disrespectful absloutely to all who poked fun with his sexuality that is disrespectful QUOTE]

Who did that??!!!!:confused:

LexInVA

Jul. 15, 2008, 10:44 PM

[QUOTE=dudleys;3364061]Disrespectful absloutely to all who poked fun with his sexuality that is disrespectful QUOTE]

Who did that??!!!!:confused:

Nobody did. But often many people jump on the "You can't talk about it at all without me finding it offensive!" bandwagon with many topics including sexuality. Usually they will take that stance out of anger simply because they feel that unless you are strongly connected to the topic of discussion, you have no business discussing it. Sometimes they will be that way because they feel that sooner or later it always turns into a discussion of viewpoints that they would not find favorable.

frugalannie

Jul. 15, 2008, 10:51 PM

Monday's Boston Globe had an interesting article about head injuries related to sports. I'm going to pull out several of the salient points here, and the citations will be in the article. (the Health/Science section, July 14, 2008).

1. Headline:Female athletes suffer more head injuries than males. Based on studies conducted by the NCAA and Univ. of Pittsburgh (reported at the American College of Sports Medicine and the American Orthopedic Society for Sports Medicine respectively), female athletes are more likely to suffer concussions than males in like sports. They are also more likely to have more severe symptoms and be more impaired post injury.
2. Rates are reported to be 68% higher for females in soccer and 3 times higher in basketball. (Journal of Athletic Training).
3. It is posited that this may be due to women having weaker neck muscles.
4."Concussion specialists for years have emphasized that return to play following an injury, which requires complete resolution of all symptoms both at rest and during exercise, will require more time in some players than others."
5. The closing sentence in the article: "Helmets offer great protection against skull fracture, but essentially do nothing to protect against concussion...".

My points: our sport doesn't even know what it doesn't know about head injury.

We have lots more females at the lower levels, and maybe even at the higher levels for all I know, and we aren't tuned into this.

Let's use the opportunity of Darren's remarkable return to focus on what needs to be done for the sport more generally to help all the participants understand head trauma and concussion better, and not return to participation until the risk of further injury is diminished.

Just my two cents.

BaroquePony

Jul. 15, 2008, 11:09 PM

Originally posted by dudleys:

Go back and read them yourself.

Well, it would be nice if we could go back and read "them" for ourselves, but think-about-it and you and a couple of others DEMANDED those things be removed from the thread.

Originally posted by dudleys:

Maybe I missed something?

Well, we are all missing something because a few people felt that only certain things should be allowed to be discussed and they wanted to get the material in question deleted, and apparently they succeeded.

So, now you tell us to go back and read it and it isn't there. Did you not understand what you so fervently asked the moderators to do :confused:

dudleys

Jul. 15, 2008, 11:49 PM

Thank you Moderater 1 pg. 37 for removing the postings of disrespect to Darren. Pg. 35 is when things of Darren's concern's started to take a turn of outside gossip and personal life being at the fore front not the concern of his return to competition just 4 months after a traumatic injury.
The ad Baroquepony manipulated of Darren I still question why that is left on here.
Thank you for pulling the other postings. A step in the right direction.

BaroquePony

Jul. 15, 2008, 11:56 PM

Originally posted by frugalannie:

My points: our sport doesn't even know what it doesn't know about head injury.

I think a "return to play" rule is an excellent idea. I also think that JERs recognition that the impacts involved are more like those involved in Formula 1 racing and Nascar than NFL types of head injuries because of the impact and speed involved.

LLDM

Jul. 16, 2008, 08:04 AM

5. The closing sentence in the article: "Helmets offer great protection against skull fracture, but essentially do nothing to protect against concussion...".

My points: our sport doesn't even know what it doesn't know about head injury.

We have lots more females at the lower levels, and maybe even at the higher levels for all I know, and we aren't tuned into this.

Let's use the opportunity of Darren's remarkable return to focus on what needs to be done for the sport more generally to help all the participants understand head trauma and concussion better, and not return to participation until the risk of further injury is diminished.

FA, you are da bomb.

While most people were in the XC session at the safety summit, I was over in the Vet & Medical section. There was a lot of great discussion concerning BOTH horse and human issues. I am crushed at how little of it seemed to "make the list" of things coming out of the summit.

Unfortunately, I believe that the Federation takes a "if we don't really understand it then we won't do anything about" approach. I will say again - many of our leaders are stuck in a mindset that there are things "too complicated" for them to address. In fact, there are bodies of knowledge and experts that can be utilized to reasonably address these issues. Concussions, return-to-play and injury assessments are among them.

SCFarm

pwynnnorman

Jul. 16, 2008, 09:19 AM

THERE! There is what is NOT being considered by the FEI, USEF, and anybody involved with safety.

Too many people use the tired and worn adage, "It is their right. Leave them alone." That no longer holds any meaning once this SPORT became sponsor driven, spectator driven, amateur/low level rider driven.

Ah, but, Reed, while I agree with your entire post, as the subsequent discussion about USEA's role/reaction illustrates: In this country, it's always "your right"--until someone takes it away from you.

Will USEA have the willpower to "infringe" further on competitors' rights? Huge question. I do think the sport would be a better one if its governing body did make some tough calls. The sport has evolved, but its rules are still playing catch up.

Trixie

Jul. 16, 2008, 09:22 AM

If you read what I wrote in respond to think-about-it then you would rephrase what you wrote. Disrespectful absloutely to all who poked fun with their ads and his sexuality that is disrespectful and this board is being used inappropriately when people are doing just that. Go back and read them yourself. Maybe I missed something?
Concern is one thing disrespect is what that was all about!!!!!!

I DID. And I absolutely do not believe the Darren or Lainey threads "need to be pulled."

I completely agree that Darren's sexuality is completely irrelevant to the discussion at hand. But I absolutely do not think the discussion at hand is irrelevant to the community as a whole, and therefore, I do not think the threads need to be pulled OR that they're disrespectful. Big name riders are precisely that - BIG NAME RIDERS - and need to act like role models for the sport.

Furthermore, in response to the post that you were responding to, the suggestion to "call the Chronicle" to "demand" anything every time one disagrees with something just makes you look a whole world of krazy.

JER

Jul. 16, 2008, 09:54 AM

Unfortunately, I believe that the Federation takes a "if we don't really understand it then we won't do anything about" approach. I will say again - many of our leaders are stuck in a mindset that there are things "too complicated" for them to address. In fact, there are bodies of knowledge and experts that can be utilized to reasonably address these issues. Concussions, return-to-play and injury assessments are among them.

SCFarm

This points to one of the biggest problems in our sport. We have a leadership crisis. We have 'leaders' who don't actually understand the principles of safety (or data collection or statistical analysis) and how to apply them to eventing. And what's even worse, there's no sign that these 'leaders' are looking to outside safety experts or that they're even willing to entertain the idea.

glfprncs

Jul. 16, 2008, 10:18 AM

Sadly, I believe we live in a country that is 'reactive' in nature, rather than 'proactive.' Rather than be proactive and look for solutions years ago, when things we just beginning to brew under the surface, the governing body of the sport had to wait until we're in full blown crisis mode to even consider doing anything of benefit. It took the deaths of countless people and horses for them to scratch their heads and say, "Hmmm...perhaps we should consider stepping in and doing something in an effort to prevent this from happening."

The same issues can be applied in other areas of our country as well. For years, I have been horrified at the countless children shoved onto school busses (who are allowed to stand, hang out windows, walk up and down the aisle) who will be unprotected in the event of an accident. Rather than mandate that children be required to wear a seatbelt on a bus (just like we're required to wear in a car), and being proactive about it, it will probably take some horrible accident, and the subsequent death of many innocent children before the government makes the decision to do anything about it. Again...reactive vs. proactive.

deltawave

Jul. 16, 2008, 11:31 AM

I'm struggling with the concept of "competitors' rights". The way I see it, we pay to belong to the USEA/USEF/FEI, we pay to enter shows that are run under USEA/USEF/FEI rules, we sign a paper every time we enter stating we subject ourselves to the rules of the relevant governing body, that we compete at our own risk, that we waive our rights to our photos being taken or used, and that we waive a whole long list of other "rights" by signing the form. I've clipped it below--note that NOTHING on the list includes a "right to compete".

I'd put competing in horse sports on the "privileges" list, not the "rights" list, personally. Just like a driver's license.

I AGREE in consideration for my participation in this Competition [insert name] to the following:
I AGREE that I choose to participate voluntarily in the Competition with my horse, as a rider, driver, handler, vaulter, longeur, lessee, owner, agent, coach, trainer, or
as parent or guardian of a junior exhibitor. I am fully aware and acknowledge that horse sports and the Competition involve inherent dangerous risks of accident, loss,
and serious bodily injury including broken bones, head injuries, trauma, pain, suffering, or death (“Harm”).
I AGREE to release the Federation, the USEA and the Competition from all claims for money damages or otherwise for any Harm to me or my horse and for any Harm
caused by me or my horse to others, even if the Harm resulted, directly or indirectly, from the negligence of the Federation, the USEA or the Competition.
I AGREE to expressly assume all risks of Harm to me or my horse, including Harm resulting from the negligence of the Federation, the USEA or the Competition.
I AGREE to indemnify (that is, to pay any losses, damages, or costs incurred by) the Federation, the USEA and the Competition and to hold them harmless with respect to claims for Harm to me or my horse, and for claims made by others for any Harm caused by me or my horse at the Competition.
I have read the Federation Rules about protective equipment, including Articles 318 and 1713, and I understand that I am entitled to wear protective equipment without
penalty, and I acknowledge that the Federation strongly encourages me to do so while WARNING that no protective equipment can guard against all injuries.
If I am a parent or guardian of a junior exhibitor, I consent to the child’s participation and AGREE to all of the above provisions and AGREE to assume all of the obligations
of this Release on the child’s behalf.
I AGREE that “the Federation,” “the USEA” and “Competition” as used above includes all of their officials, officers, directors, employees, agents, personnel, volunteers and
affiliated organizations.
I agree that if I am injured at this competition, the medical personnel treating my injuries may provide information on my injury and treatment to the Federation on the
official USEF Accident/Injury Reprt form.
I represent that I have the requisite training, coaching and abilities to safely compete in this Competition.
BY SIGNING BELOW, I AGREE to be bound by all applicable Federation Rules and all terms and provisions of this entry blank.

snoopy

Jul. 16, 2008, 11:39 AM

SRF1

Jul. 16, 2008, 11:41 AM

Furthermore, in response to the post that you were responding to, the suggestion to "call the Chronicle" to "demand" anything every time one disagrees with something just makes you look a whole world of krazy.

Trixie,

At risk of being attacked for being new to posting on this board (not viewing) and agreeing with Dudleys, Octavian Jazz and others regarding the improper use of this board lately, I have to say I do not agree with the above statement. If you carefully read Think-about-its concerns they did not decide to speak up and say anything (or demand the threads come down) until the threads became disrespectful with the latest photos, accusations ect.. and the board was clearly being misused. It was not about the other concerns being posted for Darren.

So are you saying with them disagreeing to this that you find the pictures ect. above acceptable? Honestly would your feelings change if the thread had your name on it and was about you? If people are so SURE the pictures/accusations are not that bad/hurtful (as Baroque Pony said) then why not email DC first with them and at least GIVE HIM the courtesy to decide for himself before posting on a public BB for the whole world to see? To me that is crazy, not someone taking a stand for someone they do not know and dont want to see hurt. To me that is caring!

Everythingbutwings

Jul. 16, 2008, 11:59 AM

SRF1, you have no idea the amount of krazee this board has seen, nor how many incensed people have called the Chronicle, the moderators, the editor, the publisher in a rage over posts that wad their undies.

Requests, you see, get a bit more consideration than do demands. There is a nifty little button on every post one can click on to report infractions of forum rules to the moderator. :)

Trixie

Jul. 16, 2008, 12:03 PM

If you have a problem with a thread on the COTH forums, contact the MODERATORS. That is their job.

The rules VERY SPECIFICALLY state:

The moderators’ decisions are final and while you may not always agree with them, respect that such actions are done in the best interest of the board, based upon a number of factors, not always readily apparent. If you question the handling of a situation, contact a moderator privately and respectfully, in order to discuss it.

I maintain that calling on posters to the COTH offices to complain and make "demands" makes one look crazy. Really. It does. And whiny, too. Unfortunately, this bad behavior reflects on all of us, and personally, I don't wish to see COTH decide to close down the boards because they're too much of a hassle.

Furthermore, I already stated that I didn't find the commentary on DC's personal life to be appropriate. I also stated that I felt, and I still do, that commenting on how his decisions as a BNR will affect the sport, are completely appropriate. Same thing with Laine Ashker. They are very much in the public eye, and presently, they aren't doing it any favors. Nonetheless, by discussing it, we can all learn and hopefully move forward.

While I'm not sure what exactly your unclear final sentence means, I reiterate that this is a public forum and if the folks in question would like to come on here and make a statement, they are welcome to. COTH is not exactly a low-profile forum.

Ajierene

Jul. 16, 2008, 12:06 PM

Trixie,

At risk of being attacked for being new to posting on this board (not viewing) and agreeing with Dudleys, Octavian Jazz and others regarding the improper use of this board lately, I have to say I do not agree with the above statement. If you carefully read Think-about-its concerns they did not decide to speak up and say anything (or demand the threads come down) until the threads became disrespectful with the latest photos, accusations ect.. and the board was clearly being misused. It was not about the other concerns being posted for Darren.

So are you saying with them disagreeing to this that you find the pictures ect. above acceptable? Honestly would your feelings change if the thread had your name on it and was about you? If people are so SURE the pictures/accusations are not that bad/hurtful (as Baroque Pony said) then why not email DC first with them and at least GIVE HIM the courtesy to decide for himself before posting on a public BB for the whole world to see? To me that is crazy, not someone taking a stand for someone they do not know and dont want to see hurt. To me that is caring!

The comments on sexuality in the horse world, while off topic, were not accusatory but a comment on what non-horse people thought of riders. The comment was that someone (non-horsey) assumed Darren is married with kids while another assumed he is homosexual solely because he rode horses. There were also comments that non-horse people assumed all well-built (read 'buff') horsewomen were homosexuals, based solely on their appearance.

As far as the pictoral commentary - it was in the vein of a political cartoon. The New York Times does not offer their cartoons to Bush, or Cheney or the Prime Minister of England before printing them, why should this forum be any different?

Yes, they were off-topic, but so is the discussion of them being off-topic, so how is violating a rule with one off-topic discussion better than violating a rule with another off-topic discussion?

Everythingbutwings

Jul. 16, 2008, 12:07 PM

Mclain Ward's posting was a memorable bit of COTH history :)

I found it! :)

Mclain Ward (page two) (http://www.chronicleforums.com/Forum/showthread.php?t=24511)

Robby's Point to Make About Brain Injury (http://www.chronicleforums.com/Forum/showthread.php?t=35009)

Jair's Ultimate Gay Pride Message (http://www.chronicleforums.com/Forum/showthread.php?t=35073)

Classic stuff.

SRF1

Jul. 16, 2008, 12:53 PM

Thanks everything but wings,

If I have a concern I will go that route. I understand what everybody is saying. However, everybody keeps claiming this thread is about how much everyone cares about Darren. Why would these same people be upset at someone for trying to protect him further. (regardless of how people feel they went about it) if the bottom line was that it would keep DC from getting hurt any further? I thought this is a community and he is one of your own? Sorry, I just DONT get it. :(

Everythingbutwings

Jul. 16, 2008, 12:57 PM

I got the impression that quite a few people would prefer that a person with such a recent injury of that nature didn't put himself in a position to cock up his toes at a public competition. :no:

Trixie

Jul. 16, 2008, 12:58 PM

If I have a concern I will go that route. I understand what everybody is saying. However, everybody keeps claiming this thread is about how much everyone cares about Darren. Why would these same people be upset at someone for trying to protect him further. (regardless of how people feel they went about it) if the bottom line was that it would keep DC from getting hurt any further? I thought this is a community and he is one of your own? Sorry, I just DONT get it.

I'm afraid I don't understand your post. Can you please clarify?

Nikki^

Jul. 16, 2008, 01:28 PM

The ad Baroquepony manipulated of Darren I still question why that is left on here.

Because it's freaking genius! :D:D:D

Thank you for pulling the other postings. A step in the right direction

If you are a control freak like Stalin.

If you don't like it, don't read it. You knew the uber funny ad would make you mad, yet you looked at it. Why?

Sandy M

Jul. 16, 2008, 01:38 PM

Don't forget the NFL Quarterback, either San Fran or Dallas, who was set down for a year and finally had to retire due to concussions. That was back in the late 1980's or early 1990's. NFL was gathering concussion data and reacting to it back then. Actually that was the first time I saw conclusive evidence of how damaging even one concussion could be, much less the cumulative effect.

Steve Young of the Niners.

pwynnnorman

Jul. 16, 2008, 02:49 PM

I thought the same thing, but you sumed it up better than I would have. Some do indeed confuse "rights" and "privileges". It is that sense of entitlement.

It's not a matter of confusing them. It's a matter of defining them. Until the USEA defines what it means, it is very, very at risk for lawsuits. Remember, you can always file a lawsuit. Doesn't mean you'll win, but it does mean you can cost someone else a lot of trouble and money by doing so.

Until there is a specific rule passed and specific language included, you pay your entry fee and you get your rights -- and anyone wanting to deny you that puts themselves at risk of a lawsuit. (Then add the complication of, in this case, the individual's need to make a living...Talk about a dicey situation.)

I'm not advocating here, BTW. I'm just discussing the way it is (IMO), like it or not.

pessoakbark

Jul. 16, 2008, 02:59 PM

Nomoreusernames

Jul. 16, 2008, 03:44 PM

Pessoakbark. Get the stars out of your eyes. a) I don't event, b) I've known Darren known long time and don't care to see him with permanent brain damage.

deltawave

Jul. 16, 2008, 03:46 PM

you don't want him giving eventing another "black eye" because then you won't have a sport.

That is absolutely correct. However, speaking for myself I also am concerned that if DC has another accident that it will be personally very tragic for him. I don't know him, only have spoken to him briefly on one occasion, don't personally have any real opinion on him as a person, but he is a card-carrying member of the human race, so I would feel badly if something bad happened to him that was entirely preventable.

It is quite possible to have complex feelings on a topic. One doesn't necessarily have to see the entire world as "fish" or "fowl". For instance, I support his "right" to ride horses if he wishes. On his own time, on his own horse, on his own property. I think it's really foolish, but it's his prerogative as an adult to do as he pleases; he's breaking no laws. I assume here that a judgment like this is made with one's faculties intact, which I question in this case. But that's neither here nor there--he has been declared "competent", apparently, and that means he can decide for himself.

On the other hand, I feel very strongly that since he's a representative of my sport (yup, mine) that he should take this role seriously and do the right thing, especially given the fact that he represents the "Safety" concerns of the sport and is publicly viewed as an advocate for better judgment and safer behavior. As such, I am very against him making a "statement" in this fashion that he's "back", and safe, and competent and "fine". I bear him no personal ill will (although I think the Ultium ad is stupid and degrading--no woman would ever be asked to pout like that to sell horse food--and the Clockwork Orange spoof is priceless) but I do think it's reckless, foolish and it ticks me off that he's out COMPETING right now with no good earthly reason for doing so. He can stay home and jump Preliminary fences all day long. I think that's foolish and reckless, too. But that's his private concern. The sport is not private, his role in the sport is not that of a private citizen. You betcha I'm worried what his soothing his selfish personal needs is potentially doing to my sport.

pessoakbark

Jul. 16, 2008, 05:15 PM

RAyers

Jul. 16, 2008, 05:24 PM

I also know darren personally and have for a long time - don't want him to suffer permanent brain damage, but really believe that he has recovered and should be allowed to do what he feels so passionately about.

Sure he can ride. As a result of that, then he also needs to be responsible for his decision. He should dismissed from any safety effort associated with the USEF/USEA as he is exhibiting poor safety consciousness and is not a good role model for younger riders. He fails to follow well understood, tested and measured guidelines for the management of TBI in sports. Thus, he proves that his interest in safety is only as a career booster and not in real safety as defined previously here and in other threads.

Passion does NOT superceed nor preclude personal accountability nor responsibility. Ask Rodger Clemmens or Bary Bonds.

Reed

LLDM

Jul. 16, 2008, 06:25 PM

nomoreusernames - yeah, i get it. you apparently don't. you people who are "concerned" are mostly just selfish...you don't want him giving eventing another "black eye" because then you won't have a sport.

Oh please. It's called enlightened self interest. And if none of us have a sport then Darren won't either.

It's also called responsibility. If DC wants (as shown by his actions) to represent the sport - not only in upper level competition - but also on multiple USEA and USEF committees - then he has voluntarily committed himself to represent the best interests of the sport. He has the right to change his mind and step down from those committees. But until he does, he has an obligation he specifically and knowing chose before any TBI issues muddied the waters.

Because of his position, he is more obligated to set the right example for the rest of the sport and the rest of the world's perception of it.

SCFarm

deltawave

Jul. 16, 2008, 07:17 PM

How many of us roll our eyes in disgust at instructors, teachers, authority figures who say "do as I say, not as I do"? I certainly don't give much credit (or many of my clinic/lesson dollars) to people with no credibility--those who talk the talk but don't walk the walk.

SRF1

Jul. 16, 2008, 07:27 PM

Before anyones makes one more comment about Darren please read below, as Think-about -it stated you never know who you may be hurting! How devistating for Will and his family. My thoughts and prayers are with them.

First, I want to say THANK YOU to all of you who have so quickly and strongly come to Will's defense. I knew this forum was full of people with class and dignity you just proved it.

I just have to say, eventer2002, you have NO idea who Will Faudree is. I happen to be a relative of Will, and I often look on this forum for updates, information, etc and I was shocked to see a posting so hateful. I am deeply offended that anyone who could start a post with such venom. I feel an apology is in order. I, by no means, need to come to Will's defense, his record simply says it all. But, I am wondering, did you earn a Pinque coat at the age of 22 & win a Gold Medal at the Pan Am's? Were you on THIS year's short list? Did you go to the WEG in Aachen? Were you the travelling reserve for the 2004 Olympics? Will has accomplished plenty on Brad....and he has only just begun.

What is truly amazing is that someone could say something so mean and hateful without even knowing him. Not even thinking that a relative could look and see such a posting. No tact, and lack of class does not even scratch the surface....

And as for his parents buying him an "already made 4* horse, you could not be more off base. Will himself contributed to the purchase of Brad and had to sell a hell of alot to get him. Will's parents LOVE him, and knows how much he loves what he does. How could you not support that if you were able? Will is up extremely early every morning, like many of you, he rides many, many horses, prepares for HT and runs clinics - he works his ass off and always has. Will hardly had it made.

Did you know that he suffered a severe concussion in 1999, and had to learn to walk and talk again? And then his barn was struck by lightning a week before the Mandatory Outing for the Athens Olympics? Not to mention being so close to possibly winning Rolex the last couple of years, but choosing to withdraw, all on behalf of Brad's welfare. Will has had his fair share of adversity.

But mostly, I am deeply saddened by your comments, especially now, because I am not sure if anyone here knows, but Will's sister, Kristen Faudree, was diagnosed with a very rare and aggressive cancer over Memorial weekend and our family is completely devastated. Will and his family are doing all they can just to keep it together.

So, no, Will is not going to the Olympics this year, but before you criticize that great kid, YOU sit and listen to him tell his sister, "Kristen, if I go to Hong Kong I am bringing back the Gold for you"....and I am sure he would have........now THAT is class.

deltawave

Jul. 16, 2008, 07:32 PM

If your desire was to keep this topic from being "front and center", you might have done better to send the OP a private topic. I hadn't even read the thread about Will and had no idea at first what you were referring to. :(

RAyers

Jul. 16, 2008, 07:33 PM

...Did you know that he suffered a severe concussion in 1999, and had to learn to walk and talk again? ...

Forgive me for not "getting it" but, other than the above statement what does this post have to do with a rider competing after a Grade III concussion contrary to established medical guidelines and practices?

Will is not Darren so how does any of that compare?

Reed

BarbB

Jul. 16, 2008, 07:36 PM

I think this is just posted on the wrong thread.

BaroquePony

Jul. 16, 2008, 07:59 PM

OK, here we go ...

I am older than some of the eventers on this thread :yes:

That being said, I grew up under military riding instructors, mostly men. When I wasn't getting lessons from them, I was getting lessons at another barn that may have had women instructors, but they had been taught by military instructors.

One of the biggest changes that I have noticed over the years is the "falling away" of the military approach to instructing and training horses and riders.

A couple of the more notable things about having military instructors were:

1) when they said something you didn't go against them, or least not often (not without paying a big price),
2) they had a tendency to tell you that you were only going to do such-and-such until you were ready,
3) yes, after a while you did give up on asking when you would be ready because you had learned that they would let you know,
4) they spent a lot of time saying, NO you cannot jump your horse more than twice a week at the most,
5) NO, you cannot jepordize the safety and soundness of a good horse,
6) NO, that horse is not built to do what you want to do with him,
7) NO, you need more experince to move up,
8) NO, NO, NO ...
9) YES, you can do the posting trot for two hours,
10) YES, you can trot without stirrups for two hours,
11) YES, you will clean all of your tack properly,
12) YES, you will walk your horse dry,
13) YES, you are now ready to take that incredible horse over a six and a half foot spread (at which time you are saying ... why did I want to do this?)

My main point here is that those military riders had a huge amount of experience with working horses and riders in a progressive manner, and they were always DIRECTING who rode what and who could do what, etc.,

It wasn't until I was older that I realized they were not being mean (gruff occasionally, but that is way different than mean). They understood the amount of experience every rider needs to have before moving up to greater challenges. Experiences like riding a whole bunch of different horses, including some that weren't so 'gifted'.

I think one of the basic things that has slowly erroded away over the years, since the demise of our cavalry, has been the loss of this military type of progressive training leading up to very experinced riders and horsemen riding incredible horses over incredibly challeging (but fair) courses.

There was a leader, a military leader that kept most of us from getting killed or maimed before we understood the real nature of the sport. Broken arms were OK, but looked upon as a "what did you do wrong" to obtain such an injury while dealing with your horse?

Anyway, I see that lack of military instruction as one of the things that has effected the sport. There is a recklessness that seems to have crept in. I do not think it is the 'fault' of any one person, but I do think it has had a detrimental effect overall.

I betcha if we still has a cavalry we would have caught Bin Laden :yes:

BaroquePony

Jul. 16, 2008, 08:08 PM

Who's Will :confused:

BaroquePony

Jul. 16, 2008, 08:13 PM

I am trying my darndest to be well behaved, but it's tough :(

I am one of those people that sees humor in just about everything, unfortunately that includes a bit of dark humor on occasion.

The wierd part is that I actually am a serious person (in what I do).

Why, why is the universe so twisted :confused:

Nomoreusernames

Jul. 16, 2008, 08:18 PM

I've always found well behaved people quite boring...

SRF1

Jul. 16, 2008, 08:24 PM

BarbB

Jul. 16, 2008, 08:35 PM

Sorry for the confusion :(

PLEASE CAN WE END THIS? :confused:

You could delete your post.

RAyers

Jul. 16, 2008, 08:39 PM

Sorry for the confusion :(

The part of the thread I attached was just posted by one of Will Faudrees relatives. Please see thread and you will understand that the family members of people being talked on these boards are seeing these hurtful posts and these posts ARE causing alot of pain to people you dont even know.

PLEASE CAN WE END THIS? :confused:

Well, now you can call me confused. Why should we end a call for a person who fails to meet any reasonable medical guideline for management of a TBI to step down from any associated safety effort; or for an organizer to have the right to refuse an entry because of the risk posed by such a rider?

While I do not know Darren on a personal level, I have ridden against him and have personal dealings with him. That by no means will limit my effort to push for reasonable safety management of this sport which includes putting a stop to letting pe